quote: ------------ Any ideas from anyone would be greatly appreciated. ------------
I have an idea that your wife is exhibiting an increasing sense of entitlement. Why do you think that is happening?
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Thanks for the comments. I have tried going down that path as well. Initially I was throwing out ideas on what I felt was the best plan of action, that unfortunately was taken the wrong way. She actually got rather upset over the whole thing.
Again I brought up the issue in MC and she again got very upset and felt that I was trying to tell her what she could or could not spend money on. In actual fact I was just asking her to gather receipts from purchases so we could figure out where our money was going to allow us to build up a budget and plan of attack.
From our last conversation on this subject she told me that she just wanted to continue paying down the debt as we currently are. She also told me that it was my fault for allowing her to get used to this standard of living.
So long and short its a touchy hot spot for her but yet it something we need to deal with. I am meeting with a financial adviser later today in a hope that he can suggest some possible plan for getting rid of this debt.
Any other suggestions on how I can approach W on this touchy subject would be most welcome.
Stop taking all the responsibility for this upon yourself.
Tell her you are sorry to spring this on her but your standard of living will HAVE to go down, as your income has gone down. It's basic math, really! Then ask her to come up with a financial plan and that you will go along with it, so long as paying off the debt is the top priority.
Sorry, but I've never heard anything so ludicrous as to think that you can maintain a certain standard of living and pay debt down at the same time. Unless your income goes up at the same time, this aint gonna happen, kwim?
I too hated to be told how to spend money. Somewhere along the way, I managed to swallow my pride and listen to my H--who obviously had our best interests at heart. In the process, I became more ma-toor as a wife (allowing yourself to take direction from your mate is not all that bad...if he's stronger financially then what was my problem? Only that I wanted what I wanted.) and also learned a lot about managing money. Currently we have a 15 yr mortgage and no debt, except for one car payment. Although recently I have been harboring dreams about buying some real estate to rent, for profit. I am still trying to decide on real estate MOGUL or TYCOON but I need input from Mandksdad, because I understand he recently did this with his wife.
Anyway, I digress. The point is that your wife can learn to be more frugal and work WITH you in paying down the jointly accumulated debt. Be strong and don't let her weasel out of this. She needs to grow and you will actually be impeding this process if you bail her out of the situation.
Good luck with the convo. My best advice is to go in with an open and charitable heart. Be open to hearing her ideas. Try to compromise on issues that you don't really care about. Force her to come up with ideas and don't automatically "fill the space" of the convo if she is not offering any ideas. Let the silence be her guide that you are not going to White Knight her outta this. Involve her in the process as much as possible. If you use figures, keep them at a minimum (ie, our expenses are 10 billion a month and our income is 5 billion a month...I'm interested in getting your input as far as what areas we can cut corners?)
My H used to draw up these elaborate charts and they drove me nuts. I wanted the bottom line..how much were we short and then I could go about thinking of places to curb spending and cover the shortage. This became a way of life for me, I'm happy to say.
Was she on board with your business to begin with? That is the only thing I can think of as to why you would be embarrassed or feel bad about telling her, Help me think of ways to change our financial setup..it isn't working any longer.
--------------------- I have an idea that your wife is exhibiting an increasing sense of entitlement. Why do you think that is happening? ---------------------
Your comments on your prior post I fully agree with. In a conversation with W over the debt I suggested that we sould get a debt consolidation loan and rip up all the cards (save one for emergencies) as it is becomming obvious that we cant seem to use them responsibly anyways. The return comment was that she needs it to book flights etc for work travel. I suggested that they supply her with a card for such purposes. That suggestion was flatly refused.
On the entitlement front, I'm starting to think that she is getting prepared for a parting of the ways. A few months ago she expressed concernt that all of our major assets were in my name. When we sat down to discuss this, I tried to explain that the house is in both our names, the car is in her name (she did not beleive me) and the van is in my compnay's name. So the split of assets was equal as well that in marriage everything is shared equaly. She did not accept this, or maybe she never understood. She brought it up a number of times since then till one nite I lost my cool and brought out the registration papers for the car and for the morgage on the house to prove my point. I also suggested that she needs to grow up and realize that we have resposibilities to our children that will require sacrifices on our parts.
I havent heard a word since then, but I think she still has that in her mind and that may be where the entitlement feeling are comming from.
I think from prior posts, you mentioned that I should "keep my eyes open" as far as possible EA etc. All of her actions to date seem to point that way when put back to back. I have not and will not approach her on this subject unless I have concrete information to prove such.
Im almost thinking that W is trying to work me up to make it easier to justify D. She has not said so but either she is going donw that path or she is honestly trying to work out her feelings / problems. I hope its the later.
One more bit of info, W was married when we first met, and from what I knew of her prior marriage she seems to be going down the same path.
Again I hope and pray im wrong. I guess all I can do is continue to better myself and try to be the man of steel / tin foil as was suggested.
Let me know if any ideas pop into your head on if any of this makes sense.
Thanks again I really appreciate the comments in these dark times..
Quote: ----------- The return comment was that she needs it to book flights etc for work travel. I suggested that they supply her with a card for such purposes. That suggestion was flatly refused. -----------
Then you need to directly contact her company and find out what their travel policy is. I have never heard of a company requiring employees to travel at their own expense, other than shorter trips by car. That sounds awfully suspect to me. Do NOT tell her that you are contacting them.
quote: ------------- One more bit of info, W was married when we first met, and from what I knew of her prior marriage she seems to be going down the same path. -------------
Well, unless she addressed her prior behavior, and took steps toward rectifying her problems, then she is likely to repeat the behavior.
If your relationship started from an affair, the chances of it making it for more than a few years are very small. I am not saying that you can't or won't make it, but those are the facts.
I highly recommend that you get you finances separated, and cancel ALL your credit cards. If your wife wants a credit card, let her get one in her name only, one that you won't be responsible for. If you have joint credit cards, you need to be on the phone canceling them right after you finish this message.
Do what you can to get your fiscal responsibilities in order, ASAP.
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
I firmly agree with you on the travel policy. I an in the position of having to make travel arrangements constantly...I have a corporate card to do it with!
I too have NEVER heard of a company requiring an employee to pay for their own travel w/their own card.
I also agree with you regarding the other finances...Confused, you MUST protect yourself right now financially. Don't get stuck holding the bag! It's tough right now, but do the logical/sensible things in order to protect what you've worked for.
HP ------------------ Let HER come up with a plan. ------------------
I had a convo with W this morning. Ouch.
Here is how things went:
H: I think we need to have a discussion about our finances whenever your ready. W: Im ready any time you are. H: Ok we need to deal with our debt, do you have a suggestion on what we should do? W: Silence H: (Waiting in silence) W: Im concerned about what WE are doing to figure out what to do about finances. H: As I have said in the past, I am not going anywhere and I beleive that we can come out of this dark time loving and caring for each other. W: I guess at least we are better parenting partners lately. H: Silence W: Your not happy are you? H: I have come to understand that my happiness is no ones responsibility but my own, so I am working on making myself happy. W: long Silence H: But reguardless of happiness we need to deal with our finances to ensure our kids have a future. H: Any ideas on what we should do to deal with our finances? W: I think we need to sell everything and pay off the debt. H: I dont think this is acceptable. From looking at realty web sites, we will have to move into a two bedroom condo in the bad part of town to allow up to keep our debt down. Or move out of town and commute 1 - 2 hrs per day. Do you have any other suggestions? I gave you two options that I felt would work, please give me the same as well. W: Silence W: Silence W: I really wonder what WE are doing. We seem to be growing in differnt directions (the exact phrase escapes me right at this second). H: Just to clarify, do you mean that I dont fit into your corperate circles that you seem to be growing into? W: No, I mean that are friends are completly different. H: Is that a bad thing? W: No I guess not. H: It seems to me that we dont seem to enjoy spending time togeather any more. W: I dont agree, we I had fun the other nite (when we went to the driving range and dinner) but it seemed strained. H: True enuogh but I didnt know that you had fun, I got the feeling that you were just going through the motions. I cant get into your head and know what you are feeling about things, any more than you can me. H: I think we need to do more of that to start getting comfortable again. H: But back to the main question, do you have any suggestions on what we should do financially? W: I think we need to sell the house and pay off the debt. H: I dont feel that is acceptable. I gave you two options that you were not comfortable with either. Please give me a second option. W: Silence W: Silence H: May I give a suggestion? W: Ok H: Can we go talk to Dennis (a friend of our who is a financial advisor) and see what he has to say? W: Im not comfortable talking to Dennis and telling him about US. H: I dont have an issue talking to him as he is a professional and im sure he would have a few ideas (I talked to him yesterday, his suggestion was to get a line of credit , pay off all the cards and rip them up). W: I think we need to decide what we are doing. H: Again Im not going anywhere, I still feel that we can work on our relationship and grow back into a loving caring relationship. W: Silence. W: Silence. H: May I make another suggestion? W: Sure H: Would you be willing to listen to something on your way to work? W: Is it another one of THOSE books (referring to SSM)? H: Please dont discount THOSE books unless you read ti from cover to cover, there is alot of useful information in there that seems to describe both of us to a tee. W: All it says in there is that I should just DO IT and it will get better the more I DO IT. H: When I was going to church, I remember that christinas were told that if you dont like a certain passage in the bible you cant just rip it out and make your own bible. All I was asking for is that you read this book with an open mind. Also you said the other day that you love me but are not in love with me, what does LOVE mean to you? W: Silence W: Silence W: FINE Ill call in sick and stay home. H: Im not saying that, go to work. When I asked you to have a conversation about finances when you were ready, I meant when you were ready. H: We can talk about this later. I will go start your car. W: Silence
The usual strained pleasantries were exchanged and off she went.
I guess timing sucked but I think now that I have started this ball rolling I need to follow up tonight. Do you think that is too soon? From her track record she would not bring up the conversation. So I think it falls on me to do so.
Also I need to clarify something, the company W works for does not expect her to pay for travel and expenses, but the problem is they are slow to remburse expenses leaving us with the intrest charges for her travel and related items.
Anyhow thought I give everyone an update. I wish I could go to the bank today and act on our financial advisors sugestions today but I think I had better wait for W to get onside (if she ever will). All I can do is continue to pay down the damn cards and leave our joint account bare so that she gets the message that this is not working. The first chance I get I will begin ripping up all my cards to ensure this crap never happens again.
I hope the convo this evening goes better and that she is thinking about the big question that I posed to her, what does LOVE mean to her (to me it means that you must do things for others expecting no reward except for the fact that you are doing what they need).
The dark pit continues to see no end....
Thanks for all the support and suggestion they do truly help in these dark times..
---------------- Although recently I have been harboring dreams about buying some real estate to rent, for profit. I am still trying to decide on real estate MOGUL or TYCOON but I need input from Mandksdad, because I understand he recently did this with his wife. ---------------
I can speak from experince (my parents had rental properties when I grew up, and many of my cousins still have this on the go), it has its ups and downs, it is nice to have a solid investment that grows, but it is alot of work. I remember many a month end wondering if ppl would do the midnight move, damage the place and then all the work that goes into cleaning up, repairing and renting places to ensure you can meet the morgage. Its a tough grind but if you like the work it can be rewarding.
This...."Also I need to clarify something, the company W works for does not expect her to pay for travel and expenses, but the problem is they are slow to remburse expenses leaving us with the intrest charges for her travel and related items."....still doesn't add up.
Our company still has our employees that must incurr company expenses have a corporate credit card. Company expenses should NEVER be on an individuals own credit card. At one time the individuals were responsible for making sure the card was paid for monthly....now however it is automatic through our system....but we still never used our own personal cards.
DON'T go for that, that is just another potential financial disaster for you!
Also, I would follow-up like you sid on your convo tonight. If you want to get her to read/listen to the book though...you might want to ask her to specifically listen to something you think she will relate to 1st, in order for her to see SSM isn't a "just do it" book; that it takes a perspective from both sides so that the other person can better understand where their partner is coming from.
CM, Have you always taken a calm, logical approach to solving money problems? No one wants to concede fiscal irresponsiblity. Maybe your financial planner friend can give you some advice about the best way to go about getting your W to fess up about all her financial blunders. Sovling this problem together may open up avenues to solving other problems.
Best of luck-Cinemanymph.
I don't mind the sun sometime
The images it shows
I can taste you on my lips
And smell you in my clothes
Cinnamon and Sugar
And softly spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through someone elses eyes
BHS-"Pepper"
Let's take on the next logical conclusion and question since there is an elephant in the room with us now.
Where is she going on the trips you are paying for?
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
