Re what to day to MC: When the two of you are talking at home, you probably feel like you're the moderator, that it's up to you to see that conversation happens. When you go to the MC, let him/her be the moderator. In your own mind, give up the responsibility/obligation to make anything happen. I don't mean that you shouldn't have agenda items or stuff that you want to be covered.
But don't feel like you have to keep the conversational ball rolling. If a silence happens, let it alone. Resist the temptation to fill it. Silence in the therapist's office, especially when you're new to that C or to the process in general, can feel like dead air on the radio-- excruciatingly uncomfortable (even more so when you're conscious that the meter is running). You want to fill the silence with anything.
Let the C worry about the dead air. After all, you want your W to come out of the bushes into the clearing, so let her be the one to feel uncomfortable and say something to break the silence. I'm not saying to clam up; clearly if you have something to say, say it. But in my own case, so many times I wanted to know what was going on with my partner, but when we left the session, I realized that I had done most of the talking. Well I already KNOW what I think!
I always wanted to come away from the C session feeling that I had learned something, or that I had encountered something new. If I was the one who did most of the talking, that didn't happen.
Also don't expect anything to happen any time soon. Sometimes (although IMHO it doesn't have to be this way) you spend the first few sessions just telling your story. The C my bf and I recently went to did NOT operate this way. She let us both talk for a while and then we got into it right away, with her examining and commenting on the way we interacted. As good as she was, and she was one of the best I've ever been to, we recently quit after a dozen or so sessions with basically no progress.
I would just try to validate what your wife is going through. It may mean nothing to you..or not make sense to you, but what does that matter? It is HER pain and you must validate that and take responsibility for your contribution to it, and show compassion for what she is feeling.
For instance, your excuses. I have no doubt they are valid and true but my opinion (MY opinion, now) is that there is NO excuse for not ML to your spouse. None. Others might have differing opinions, but I'm just telling you my gut reaction to reading that. So while I sympathize with everything that you have gone through and are still going through, I would still expect sex. To me, it is a non-negotiable part of M.
So if I were your wife and I heard your excuses, I would certainly be sympathetic but it would, at the same time, strengthen my resolve to get out of the M. I would see an excuse as a very scary thing. A way that you are justifying your behavior. And if it can be justified NOW, it can be justified in the future--by a different excuse--and that is too scary a proposition to consider..that I might be right back in this game in the near future.
What I would suggest doing differently is validating her pain. This does not mean that your own pain or discomfort is nothing..it just means that the affect on HER is something that you're aware of and you are sorry about. Practice saying things like, I can see how you felt that way. Validate her experience as a sex starved wife instead of trying to excuse your behavior or laying on thickly all the reasons why it will be different in the future. I think right now she just wants to be heard and to know that you agree that she suffered.
Csw, I further believe that your sitch is complicated due to her affair. I'm not sure how to tell you to proceed wrt that but I do see results from other DB posters, so things like getting a life and detaching might be good for you. Plus, they will probably be 180's, eh? I would not back off on the affection, because that is not necessarily a 180 for you but the idea should be to show her the most positive and engaging CSW that you can muster. Make her question her decision to throw it all away.
Good luck.
I liked Lillie's idea to let the silence be. Someone will fill the vacuum. It will make you look less desperate and more confident if it's not always you.
I made a BIG mistake with my H initially myself. When I first began addressing our SR I thought I was being supportive in how I was phrasing things. Looking back now I can see I was speaking vaugely and in euphamisms. I wasn't being specific about what I needed....you know what? That's a tough thing to learn to do.
There are still times in this past year that I thought I was being perfectly clear and not being vague, but now when I look back...Dang! I was about as clear as mud!
So, and I'm not coming down on you here k? I have a feeling your W did try to be as clear as she could be (at least at the time.) Don't give up, it takes time to learn to communicate clearly w/each other.
I found that all too often my H and I would do this little dance around each other's feelings...we'd try not to hurt the other...so absolutely nothing came out clearly. It's really quite amazing how that little self-destructive dance works. You think you're doing something nice and supportive by trying to avoid hurting the others feelings when communicating something...when in fact all you are doing is being.....vague.
Try to remind yourself...your W isn't gone yet. As long as she's still there you two still have a chance. As someone else once said on one of these boards...."an old couple was asked the secret to their long marriage...the W replied, we never gave up at the same time." So......If you give up, and she gives up...you can be guaranteed what your outcome will be. Cheer up, and hang in there!!! If you love her, it's worth it
Lassie, I sooo agree with this. I too thought I was being clear and we were on the same page and he had no clue. After he caught on to what I was saying, there was also the element of his resistance--which then caused him to purposely mis-read what I was saying..what Dr. Schnarch would call marital sadism.
So there were several levels to his not getting what I was trying to say but I found the most success with talking VERY clearly. Saying "sex" and exactly what I was thinking instead of "passion" and trying to clean it up. I now speak in almost graphic terms. This is NOT my personality at all!! But I do it because I want no room for misunderstanding between us.
Lillieperl, I definitely was guilty of filling the airwaves at the first MC session. Ain’t happenin’ again… Thanks! I think W is steamrolling toward a sep. I will lay back and let her do the talking. Our MC is a good guy, and I think he might help, but we will see. As a bonus, he is trading his services for my artwork. I saw him individually first, then W & I went together. He gave us a double session, and she went solo for the first half.
Honeypot, ** there is NO excuse for not ML to your spouse** the only valid excuse in my list was the Lichen Planus, IT HURT BADLY! (since the docs didn’t know what it was for 1 1/2 years the med didn’t work, and I had no clue if it was contagious) Our LM during that time was hurried, due to the pain and my fears, and the rush to get the condom on. They diagnosed it at the end of Oct, completely harmless and the med worked. Doc sez I got the LP from photo chemicals, and it may come and go. W dropped the bomb in NOV. After the diagnosis, I had to be tested for Hep C, since LP is an indicator of Hep C. All clear on that front, as I should be….. But this all probably scared W. Her pain does matter to me, and it does make sense, and I feel horrible about it. How do I validate her feelings without belittling her experience? I only used my excuses once. She blew them off, so I backed off. I have tried validating her feelings, but as you said, she is afraid that this prob will repeat. I still want to believe that the EA is really nothing. I really do trust her, and I think she is just reaching out to someone that wants more than she does.
GEL, I definitely love her with all of my heart, and it will take a LOT of serious punishment from her to make me give up. I may sound desperate, but if I cant do that here, where can I. I need to be all I can be for W, so I let you folks see my heart sleeves. W threw me for a loop when she cancelled the cell online account. It seemed extra weird as I always pay the bill online. All of the sudden, she has something to hide??? As far as our communication is concerned, I am NOT the most observant person in the world, and W is not the best at choosing her words. I am definitely the one to blame, and would happily take what vengeance she dishes out. She isn’t dishing anything out though, she is just going going……
W did start using words I understood at the end of the summer, but the LP was in full bloom at that time, and all I could call them were “spots” which did little help her understand. I felt VERY self conscious, and worried that I had some bizarre disease from unprotected sex that I never had. I don’t know what my mind was doing to me, but it made things worse during what she probably viewed as my last chance. It hurt . looked ugly, and made me feel like a freak.
I will try to validate her feelings. I know how serious this is, and that makes it clear how deeply she hurts. It took her so long to make it clear, and longer for me to understand, and now she sees all the time as wasted. She is 37, and in her mind it is now or never for children, so she has many valid reasons for running. I truly appreciate all of the insight shared here. I am blessed to have found the site when I did, in the nick of time.
CSW, It seems you have found some good friends here, CSW! As I am reading, it sounds like you've got a good first impression of your C. Do you have a plan for your next C session? I believe you are wise to think through how you want to help those sessions succeed as far as your R goals are concerned.
How are your immediate goals going since we last talked? (Having her come home earlier, giving you more input re: your projects, and slowing down the sep process as much as possible.)
I have not read all of your posts, but I caught your question about giving your W space, yet wanting to reassure her you are willing to be intimate. You noted that you've been turned down when you've tried to initiate. It would seem, that at this point, continuing to initate may not offer much positive movment in your R. So, what would you be seeing from your W that may give you a hint it's OK to try again to do something physical? And what kind of intimate approach could you initiate that could be somewhat subtle/safer (maybe something not too intense: light touches, hugs, brushing by her, etc...)?
If you have worked through this challenge - good for you! If you are still struggling, then remember YOUR R is unique and it will be important to try to remain sensitive to your W's positive and negative reactions. YOU are the expert about YOUR R. Others can offer help, but only you know your W better than anyone.
Laurie, Divorce Busting Coach Contact The Divorce Busting Center at 303-444-7004 or 800-664-2435 if you would like to schedule a telephone consultation with a DB Coach - or email virginia@divorcebusting.com for info.
Hi Laurie, as far as goals are concerned, W is coming home later, has little input on my projects except to imply that I was doing stuff wrong, and it seems like I may be served with papers very soon. IOW, no progress. As far as intimacy, she told me that if i didn't want to sleep in the spare room, I didn't have to, so I moved boack, and managed to touch her side hip or whatever every night, but was shrugged off several times. I used to know my W better than anyone else, now there is a list of people that she choses to confide in, rather than me. My friend (W of OM) called to say that she talked to my W on the phone. She asked my W a series of tough questions, (ie, are you sleeping together? How would you characterize your R? etc) The most interesting part of all of this was that my W called her H her best friend! UGH! OMG I screwed up!
I have been reading an NY divorce book. I feel a little schizo reading 5 LL & a divorce book, as Albert Einstein said, "You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war." I know how much I hurt W by being LDH, and I want her to be happy. I want to slow down her exit so that I can understand how she can be so sure we are DONE. She DID confirm that she would attend the MC session, a good sign that she has something to say...Time will tell what that is...
csw, I thought later on that I should have clarified my thoughts re: no excuses.
There are, of course, excuses as to why one can't make love to their spouse. Where my Zero Tolerance Policy comes into play is that the person must be actively doing something about it. To sit back and say, I have this reason that will prevent me from ML to you and, furthermore, I'm not going to do anything about it...well, that's not acceptable in my book. After all, as we have said ad nauseum on this board, there is no other place for an HD to get their needs met except within a marriage. My h's love language could be met by just about anybody (I realize I am the one he wants to do it, but still...there's no legal or ethical problems with him having the neighbor do his dishes or have a talk about religion) while I am dependent on him. Think about being dependent on your wife for a minute...truly dependent...and then think about her rejecting you and leaving you with no way to have your need met. It is a desperate and lonely feeling. Helpless would fit the bill also.
I believe this desperation has now caused her to do something really stupid and tragic, which is involve someone else in your M. I'm sorry that she is lying and trying to cover up her outside activities. Stay the DB course and monitor all those results. Try new things and stick with the counseling. And if that fails, pray like crazy!!
P.S. Your autoimmune thing sounds crazy! I hope you are feeling normally now and continue to be healthy. That's sorta step one to having a rockin sex life, right?!
Honey! I like that you came back and clarified your position on excuses. In the past, that's all anything ever was for me...excuses...because I didn't know why I was doing what I was doing. NOW, it all makes sense to me because something terrible happened to me as a child. Is that an excuse to give up and expect her to stick around? H#LL NO! I want to face my past and use it to have...as you say it...a ROCKIN' SL!!
During all of our vague conversations about S over the years, I tried to explain that I did have a SD--I would fantasize all day about what we were going to do together. But, when I got home something clicked somewhere and it was like the fantasies and action plans dissipated. It was so frustrating to know that deep down I had this amazing need for S...and S with HER...but I couldn't bring it to the surface for her. I didn't know how or why it was happening...so I had to make excuses. Granted, some were valid (or seemed to be in my mind...for anyone interested in what they were...read the previous thread New Thread for KEBall ) and some were just the result of confusion and fear of hurting her and/or myself.
I know I'm not out of the woods yet as far as this R is concerned. But, thanks to the advice and well-wishes from friends on this BB, I am beginning to see solutions and peace...for ME.
HP, As far as excuses, I was doing something about it, but I failed to clue W in on the emotional ramifications of the prob. If I had, she would have blamed the prob more than me and/or herself during that time. So clearly, there was no excuse for the way I handled the sitch, letting my embarrasment hinder my expression of my feelings. This morning W reiterated that she didn't see any hope. She said she "did too much for too long." I can't argue with that! I said that I now realize how much I hurt her, and how horrible it makes me feel.
I asked her if she was planning any major steps, and she said she would let me know before she filed any papers. She made it clear that the pain we are headed towards to her is better than the pain she is running from.
The autoimmune thing is crazy, but the med worked. It may come back, but the stuff I read said that it will not get worse, IOW, if it showed up as a couple of bumps the first time (yep), that will be the case next time. If 100 bumps(like the scary pics on the web), then.... Luckily I only had a few, but in a BAAAAAD place With the med, they disappear rapidly, and I haven't seen any since December. As far as a rockin sex life, what a dream that is! T helped me to get past the head probs I had with ML & abuse. Doc gave me the meds for my member. Now I need W to give me the chance. She made it clear that ain't happenin, so I will keep trying to make her miss me....
