Hi Sage... In answer to your question, I've told him that I need all contact with her to end, and that I need to KNOW that it has...and that it is permanent. I've told him that he could do this in several ways, his choice (borrowing a page from Not Just Friends): he could: send her an email saying it's over, no more contact, and not to contact him, and cc it to me; he could write a letter stating the same, let me read it and give me a copy and we would go together to put it into a "drop-in" mailbox; he could call her and tell her the same with me in the room. THEN he could make every effort to verify his whereabouts to me for a while....I'm not as clear about how this would work in my own mind, so I've not been as specific about it, but I have told him this is what I need.
His response is that he cant be as cruel to her as I want him to be....that he is not going to hurt her the way I want him to (his exact words from months ago, I think this was probably during the fight that ensued after his christmas trip with her). He also has expressed resentment that I expect him to account for his whereabouts. I know that must feel difficult, and it's not fair to expect him to do this forever, no one could live like that and in fact I would be abusive to expect/demand it, but some reassurance of this type would sure help for a while.
I know beyond a doubt that these things would help me to heal and move on, and the fact that he has not/refuses to do them is a red flag of concern for me.
I do recall finding a note to himself as long ago as mid-January 2004 with the heading "things to discuss" saying no writing, no calls, no letters....of course then in the same note he had "seeing some one saturday?" written below to ask about. about a month later I saw an email from her saying how difficult she found it to not have any contact.
I guess that is another thing that is very difficult for me to deal with, that he chooses to hurt me in order to avoid hurting her, if that makes any sense. It certainly looks like that is what he is choosing from my point of view...perhaps that is not the way he sees it.
I feel a little more in contol than I did last week, probably because I got the darn taxes mailed, and we had a pretty good weekend. I THINK maybe some positive baby-steps, even bigger steps perhaps, took place.
Friday, H was home all day, so he didnt do anything w/ow. in the afternoon, he initiated ml...at bedtime, I was surprised, he turned toward me, actually took me in his arms, and said "it was nice to ml this afternoon"....and he used the term "ML"...I heartily agreed with him, but I was shocked, I think this is the 1st time EVER he's said such a thing. Then, on top of that, he initiated again, and was quite enthusiastic.
Saturday, he went to do his "paperwork?"...S and I got home literally about 2 minutes before H did, in fact I wondered if he'd been in the garage when we got home, as I didn't hear the door open. H came in and kissed me, and then held up his wedding-ringless hand and said, contritely I might add, "I've been trying to get this on, but it won't go". He had his ring in his other hand. I made some joking comment, took his ring and pushed it on his finger while I was doing it, and, it WOULDNT go on; I had to believe that. I knew he only had it on as far as his knuckly when he left, and made a concious decision not to obsess about it. It's new that he would do such a thing as let me try to put it on. Not at all long ago, he'd have been furious that I would do such a thing.
I had a sense all weekend that he had kind of an underlying sadness. No clue what it might be about, but it's not about anything at home, I don't believe. I used to be frightened when he seemed sad that he was getting up his nerve to tell me he was leaving. I can't help but think now that he'd be gone already if he was going. On top of the sadness, something else was weird. The guy mowed the yard. With a push mower. 3 1/2 acres. When he has a garden tractor to mow with. I got a sense, maybe accurate, maybe not, that he felt a need for hard physical labor for some reason. He mowed parts of every day all weekend.
Saturday night we were up a little later than usual, and h was in bed 15-20 minutes before me. I thought maybe he was asleep when I got there, so I quietly got in and was on my side of the bed so as not to disturb him, and from out of the dark he said "Arent you going to hold me?" in this sad, kind of tenuous voice. That surprised me as well, I told him I'd not wanted to bother him because I thought maybe he was asleep, but that I always enjoy snuggling up to him. H said he always likes for me to hold him. I cant help but remember the days when we literally slept with each of us clinging to our side of the bed.
Sunday morning, H did chores while I slept in; said he'd be back to bed in a little bit. It was about 7 am; I commented that I should get up and get going; he acted all disappointed and hurt, said "don't you want to snuggle?" I told him of course I did, but he was such an inspiration being up and about so early, that I felt like I should get up and going. H said he wasnt an inspiration, just a person who sticks to a routine. So, he came back to bed, and we spent an hour just snuggling and snoozing, no sex, but it was every bit as nice in it's own way. I also remember how I used to long for just that. Later H went for a walk for about 2 hours, as he was leaving I walked out the door with him, and he kissed me good bye and said ILY unsolicited. When he came home, I was on the porch planting flowers. I saw him coming from aways off, but ignored him, acted as if I didnt know he was; then I turned from the flower pots and was startled because he was right behind me. There was a day when he would have ignored me and instead gone into the house by another door instead of stopping to say hi...I said "Hi, I was thinking of you, how was your walk"...made sure my voice was happy, but actually that's how I felt at the time, and he gave me a hug and kiss.
later in the afternoon, he was running steps from the basement doing his workout, and when he was at the top, I patted his rear, and said "I'm admiring your nice hiney" and he said thanks; I told him it matched the rest of his bod, and he said "thanks" again. He used to get furiously angry when I said things like that. then he'd argue or deny it. I think it's a change for him to just say thanks, and he did sound like he meant it.
This morning, he again tried to get his ring on, in front of me, and it still wont go on. Evidently his hands/fingers are that swollen from the hours of lawnmower pushing. I didnt get upset or make a big deal, just told him that I'd be happy to take it to get it sized for him if he decides that he wants me to, and that I was offering that in an effort to be helpful, not overbearing or "bossy", he said "I know, lets see in a little while it works better, it'd be just my luck you'd get it sized and then it would be too big". I don't know if I ever even posted here about it, but a couple of months ago or so, I offered to get it sized for him, and he got very insulted and angry about it. i thought that was weird, but of course dropped it like a hot potato as I've learned to do. He gave me a nice hug and kiss before he left, and said ILY very sincerely and tenderly;
ah, almost forgot, he did show me a brochure for a workshop he's thinking he might go to instead of the one on our anniversary! He even said "instead of the one on our anniversary". I've told him it's ok if he does go to the one that day, as it's during the week and a workday anyway, but that I'd like to do something to celebrate that weekend, even if just going out to eat. that I thought 26 years deserved being celebrated even if we're having to work on things right now. At first he was a little testy, because I think he thought I was going to tell him not to go, or found it insulting to be reminded, but now he seems to agree.
So, that's my tale of the weekend. Positive baby steps I think.
I can't help but notice that now ow seems to park as far away from him as possible. there are open spaces right next to his vehicle in the far parking lot where she used to park, and she is parked out in the street a city block, literally, from that parking lot. I'd love to read significance into that, don't know if there really is or not.
Yep, things do sound good. I must say that the difference seems to be in YOU not as much in your h. I mean, he still did "paperwork" on Saturday, he had ring troubles, he was acting sad at one point...all a lot of the same things that makes you nuts at times. BUT you handled yourself differently. You chose to stay upbeat. You chose not to obsess and dwell on things. Good for you, Deb. For all your efforts, you deserved to have a nice peaceful weekend and it sounds like you did just that.
I don't know for sure what to think....I THINK things are going well...but sometimes it's difficult for me to seperate my wishes from reality...So I'm going to try to jot down here some of the things I've been doing that seem to work. I also need to find time to jot down the positives, as Ellie suggested. I have a feeling if I make a list of both +'s and -'s, the former will be much longer, it's just hard for me to see sometimes.
yesterday, I only had one email from H; and he tells me that tomorrow he is not going to the annual meeting here at work. S will be going to a youth group activity with a friend, so it leaves H a perfect ow opening, I havent checked to see if she's signed up and don't intend to. when he told me he wasnt going, I just said "well you are a naughty guy, leaving me to suffer through that on my own", and dropped the subject, told H I'd pick S up on my way home as that gives me a good excuse to leave early if I need it.
Last night H initiated ML again, I didnt expect it as he'd been complaining about being tired and having an upset stomach, but frankly, he was really enthusiastic about it. at one point he asked me "why didnt you want to do this before"...still that old question comes up from time to time. I didnt go into all the involved detailed explanation that is there, I just said "I lost touch with how good it really is"...we both slept like babies, and frankly he had to wake me up after the alarm went off.
I'm not sure exactly what brings this out, but frankly in my plotting and devious mind, I'm always very happy to make sure we have sex BEFORE there is any possiblity he might see ow. I want him to be tired from having fun with me, not wrapped up in how deprived he is and how she can save him from that. Don't know if it will work in the long run, and yes it's manipulative. but oh well, what works works. I recall reading in Michelles book a comment that "you know how to push your spouses negative buttons, you also know how to push the postives".
I'm trying to focus on me, and doing what makes me "me"...because I feel better then. That in itself seems like a long road back, but slowly I think I'm making progress. I have a goal of making it to my fitness ctr 3X/week for 2 months and doing my aerobics tapes on the days I don't make it, and see if I get any progress made in my "shape up" efforts.
I also read a comment on another thread here to keep in mind that it's like trying to get an alley cat to eat out of your hand...you have to quietly and patiently tempt them. I've read that before, but it's quite fresh in my mind.
From that point of view, I've been considering what might be "tempting" to H...I do pretty much know what he likes, somethings I've always known, somethings I've learned through dbing: he NEEDS words of afirmation, as much as he needs air-I've only recently come to understand this, so I look every day for small, sincere ways to show appreciation and admiration, and every now and then throw in some high-school style zingers (hey, it worked for youknowwho, obviously); H likes to eat--got that covered, he's so well-fed that co-workers ask for stuff out of his sack lunches (one thing he complained about ow when he was in a confessional mode was that she never cooked, and he got sick of ramen noodles and frozen pizza at her place); Obviously H likes sex, unfortunately I lost sight of how important that was for his well-being and really blew that one, but have that remedied, I think. H also likes to look at female bodies. I used to scoff at that and think how adolescent and immature. Finally it dawned on me that it's a pretty universal guy thing, and if I don't use it to my advantage, I'm sure ow will. so, duh, I quit wearing big baggy t-shirts unless i'm working out or doing chores, even then he might get flashed a tiny bit, and intead got some of those rib-knit t-shirts that are more form fitting; sexier undies, and a couple of times a week i put on makeup wearing only a towel around my waist. I don't know for sure if it works, but I think it probably does. yesterday morning i was sitting on the bed putting on hose in my undies and I noticed him trying to discretely observe my torso. Don't know if that's why he was so "raring to go" at bedtime, but it probably didnt hurt.
H admires women with an independant streak, which I've always been. It's such an incongruency between his need for affirmation and yet his disdain for "clingyness" that it's a real challenge. I try to make sure that I don't let my anxiety about "us" pull me into a trap of becoming clingy. sometimes I slip up.
H is very sports minded, physically active. I used to be that way--I'm working to get back into shape, for me as well as him, because that is the "real" me. It's also a challenge that keeps my focus off of negative issues (ow). Not to mention that S happened to say once that he never ever saw ow doing anything but sitting on her hiney watching tv when H would take him to her house. H doesnt' like that.
oh yeah, I flirt with H, not always but sometimes, and pretty shamelessly and physically. This morning before he left, I gave him a long lingering kiss, told him "uh-oh, my necks getting red"...and he actually said "I see it's starting to" and left in kind of a flustered hurry. I sorta think that's good. If I can get him flustered before he leaves for work, maybe it will provide some "insulation" from ow.
I make sure I tell him ILY, but I also try to make sure it's not so much that it's obnoxious. I try to focus more on showing it than saying it.
Those are some of the things I've been doing that I think have helped me get this far. I'm journaling about them to help me take stock and assess what I might be able to do more of...I honestly think at this point, my main focus needs to be "more of the same" where H is concerned, more effort into my own GAL/inshape efforts, and PATIENCE and PRAYER.
I'm kind of having a tough day today. Annual meeting is tonight, H said he's not going, and I've not said a word about it. I'm sure I'll have a tough time not agonizing about him being w/ow if she's not there either. I mean, really, why would I believe they are not together if they are both gone from there? It would be a perfect opportunity, as her D has religion class tonight and S is skipping his (same as ow's D) to go to a youth group with a friend. I'm trying to give myself a pep talk about this one but not having a lot of success.
I've only had a couple of quick emails from H today, not much to them.
This morning H tried to get his wedding ring on, in front of me, said "the f-----g thing still won't go on" and put it back on his dresser. AT LEAST he didnt put it back buried in the basket where he left it for a year.
When he got home last night he was really wound up about weird stuff that went on at work...I guess he got called and raked over the coals by the h of a woman he saw. this h wanted his wife hospitalized (psych.). Just a lot of weird stuff, and of course made for an interesting day for H. we were talking about it, and he got to talking about another woman he is aware of who has had 3 affairs, keeps moving on to a new guy who makes more money, leaving a path of destruction and grief in her wake. H called it "sleeping her way up the food chain" ...I didnt say a word, but I wanted to say "uh, yeah, H, just like a certain other person I know"...but I just listened to him talk. H was disgusted by it, actually said how disgusted it makes him. He looked pretty angry. I couldnt/can't help but hope some of the other stuff registers.
Keep doing what's been working, Deb, with not bringing up ow to h. It's really helping to build on the successes to stick with that.
As for what works to distract yourself from negative thoughts...what tends to work for you? Do you have to go to the meeting? Could you spend time doing something for yourself?
Sometimes the thing that works best for me is recognizing the fact that what I'm fearful about is actually out of my control (IOW, you can't control h and xow) and remembering that the anxiety and worry isn't good for ME and doesn't get me closer to my goals. I try to visualize sending my worries off into the universe or I send them packing on a long train ride or something.
Also, breathing deeply and thinking "letting go, letting go" until I find my mind distracted by something else is good too.
How can you get thru this night unscathed?
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
thanks Sage, I'm not real sure what I can do, I do have to attend the meeting. All I can come up with is to try to put it out of my mind and not worry about what I cant control. I was reading an old thread on here the other day, I think it was called "1 year of dbing" or something like that, I need to find it again, it's really good, but anyway the author said he'd pretty much encouraged the A because that's what needed to happen for him to become the good guy and om to become the bad guy so that the A would fall apart. evidently it worked for him that way... maybe reminding myself that I'm actually doing what I need to to give it a chance to fall apart is good... and, I have no PROOF that they would be together, just a pretty good (bad?) feeling that's a possiblity.
question here...do you think from where you stand the +'s of H's interest in sex and some "reattachment" to the kids, etc, overshadows the negatives of him possibly still seeing her on Saturday mornings? I know that's probably not a fair question even, but I guess I wondered what it looks like to you from your experienced perspective.
