Okay, I'm going to start trying to respond to some of these posts.
Quote: Kudos to you for finally admitting that this is a problem for you...and your W, that's an important step. And it's not too late, if you W is willing to work on this....and even if she's not it still may not be too late for you guys.
It' not just admitting a problem. It's finally having a "face" on it and knowing that it's okay. I'm not the freak that I've always thought I was. I honestly had a huge lump in my throat while reading the first chapter on SSM where Michele broaches the subject of the LDH.
Quote: Here's another question for you. Are you able to get aroused? If so how? Does she have to get the ball rolling, would porn do it for you (although I don't recommend that regularly), sexy lingere? Any of that?
See for me...I get VERY tired, exhausted really, of always having to get things going. Just as some men would I imagine...but problem with me is that (and I know this may sound lame, but it's really not) I wasnt taught to be sexually aggressive...women generally aren't. We're taught that men take the lead in this way...so as a woman who has to always initiate and get shot down contantly you feel unloved/undesireable/ignored/unvalidated/unimportant...you n name it. It's HORRIBLE!!!
I never have a problem getting going once we start. It's just getting started. I stated in my original post...I'm lazy and sleep just always seemed more appealing. Our schedules only allow us to be together at the end of a night...and it's usually late when we get started. I'm the early riser, so, by the time the kids are asleep and we've caught up on the day...I'm exhausted.
I also have a VERY over-active mind that I can't shut-down very easily. I'm finding through T that it has a lot to do with wanting to completely please my wife--along with all the baggage that I have rumbling around in my head. It just made sex too much work. I worry about the "work" of helping my wife get completed--and my pleasure is secondary.
As to the question about her initiating. Like you GEL, she wasn't taught to be very aggressive. She claims she tried in the beginning to do the lingerie, etc. But, I don't really recall. For the most part, she just wanted me to want it and to get it started too. In her defense, I think she got scared of trying to initiate b/c she was afraid of rejection. So, we were just in one of those unwinnable cycles.
As for asking what it would take to make her feel loved and appreciated and sexy, we've never been very good at that type of communication. I KNOW! We need to work on it!! Anyway, we've talked about fantasy...and I know most of hers. I try to accommodate them. Early on I shared a few things I would like...she pretty much shot them down right away...and through the years alluded to them never happening. SO, I gave up trying to share what I wanted with her. I'm not adventurous or demanding.
ANYWAY, I feel like I'm getting off the path and questions here. Let's suffice it to say...neither of us were extremely experienced when we got married. Neither were virgins but we hadn't had much in the partner realm. Being good Catholics, we both have that whole "guilt" thing going on...so seeking help was a big "no-no."
Over the years, she became more frustrated. I became more neurotic and lazy. MB was easier and completely within MY control...and I didn't have to worry about things like, "Am I crushing her? Does my breath stink? Will she get pregnant? etc."
That is why we're where we are today. On the verge of a D because she thinks I don't want or desire her. She wants to find a man who will love her like she deserves to be loved and treated. I'm working to win her back...but it seems all up-hill.
GEL, be patient with your husband. Work hard in therapy and encourage him to be forth-coming. I'm learning a lot about what is at the root of my "problems." I know there are many other guys like us out there...we all need to wake up and appreciate what we have!! Before it's too late.
Feel free to bombard me with all the questions you want! I'll answer them to the best of my ability. I LOVE my wife and want to talk with her about these things. But, everything is now just excuses to her. She claims to have heard it all over the years but I don't think she really listened and I never sought help because let's be honest...what man wants to admit he has THIS kind of problem. Now, I want help and I want to get all the physiological and pschological crap under-control so that I CAN love my wife the way SHE wants to be loved!!
Talk to you soon. Everyone, I'll do my best to get to your posts soon as well!
Thanks for responding :-) And you're right, it's good to be able to put a face to this and not feel alone...for you, and for me as an HDW.
Here's a question for you. I have told my LDH that I would give anything if he would just initiate every now and then. I know (for myself anyway) that I could be ok the majority of the time initating (because now he doesn't generally turn me down, he's like you and doesn't have a problem once things get going.) So far though, he hasn't fulfilled that request.
It truly would do AMAZING things to help bolster my self esteem if he would do this for me...any thoughts as to why this hasn't happened yet? I mean...if he would simply tell me he wants me or lead me towards the bedroom, start unbuttoning my shirt...something, I'd be happy to take over.
For me (and I bet your W feels this same way) not initating out of laziness is equivalent (to her, not to you) of saying..."you're just not that important...I'd rather sleep, watch tv, play on the computer...etc." Why do you think he still doesn't do this for me...even once?
Oh, and don't worry...I'm very patient with him. This is not going to end my marriage. For me it's either learn to work our way through this, or learn to work past it.
I can tell you though, that we have had improvements in the last year. But (as you yourself said) you are both going to have to learn to communicate better, and talk about the hard stuff. FYI, I'm having to work on this too...it's not easy, but once you get the ball rolling it gets easier.
Oh and here's a suggestion so that she may not think everything you say is "just excuses"...write her a letter. This may initially be easier for you than talking face-to-face. Normally I wouldn't suggest communicating via letters...but pour your heart out, let her know you love her and don't want to lose her...tell her you want to work this out together, ask her what you can do (literally) to help her feel loved & desireable. At least if you write a letter, you can read and re-read it, edit it, and get out what you need to. Whatever you do don't sound attacking, and don't put excuses in it...concentrate on letting her know that you understand how hurt she must feel and that you want to get past this...with her.
How do you think you have got to this point? Was there something that made you think hmmmm I really need to work on this? Was it the fact you felt like you were losing your wife? Did she like all of a sudden just withdrawl and act like this just didn't matter to her anymore she was done?
I guess I am searching for a way to get through to my husband. This is not something I can learn to deal with it. It is something I would consider ending the marriage over. I love him with all my heart. But it is just tearing my heart out to much. Also I don't want to end up cheating and feel like I am on the verge. I don't ever want to hurt anyone that way.
I really do sympathize with you, truly I do. Here's a question for you k? If you were to find out that what's going on in your M has nothing to do with you personally would that help your patience level...would you still be willing to end your M?
I was in your shoes a year ago, I am oh so familiar with how you feel right now. What helped me/us though is that I forced the communication issue and because I've done that I have found out it's not "me", and I've learned many of the ways my H does show that he loves "me". Granted, it's not a replacement for sex, but being able to recognize these love signs really helps my patience/understanding level throughout this process.
I know you've stated before elsewhere that your H MB's, I also can relate to how personally insulting that is...when you (a perfectly good, perfectly attractive woman) is right there for him. It gets to be very difficult.
Here's my observation on your H and KEBall here....they have desire, but it's easier to avoid you (and his W) and not face the anxiety of having performance issues than it is to MB...there's absolutely no pressure there. But THEY DO HAVE SEXUAL URGES. The key is finding out why they would rather do that than ML to their W.
For you KEBall...if you know it's laziness why would you allow that laziness to have so much control over an important aspect of your M? Why do you think you didn't hear your W when she was telling you there was a problem?
Quote: Why do you think you didn't hear your W when she was telling you there was a problem?
My H has a lot in common with you KeBall. I just recently asked him this question(again) that GEL posed to you. He said he chose to ignore me when I got upset. I didn't really appreciate hearing this but it did help me realize that it was necessary for me to get calm and really put the marriage on the line in order for him to finally "get" or choose not to ignore the fact that we had a big problem.
I think GEL is right that you should try to explain/show all the other ways that you express your love for your W but unfortunately your W may not be as receptive or patient as GEL. She might have the thought that I had on occasion which is "Yeah, you love me like Mr.Brady loves Alice. I don't need that kind of love.".
Desperate times call for desperate measures. On another thread I semi-jokingly posted the following oath that I would make any future husband applicants take if I ended up divorced.
THE PLEDGE OF ZORBA THE GREEK
I,_____, pledge in the spirit of Zorba that there is no greater sin than to deny the desire of my woman. If I should ever sin in this manner, I shall soak my nuts in honey and serve them as baklava to the birds of prey.
********
I'm not seriously suggesting that you present your W with a signed copy of this pledge, but maybe it would be helpful to make a list for yourself of all the reasons that you feel you wouldn't want to sign this pledge.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: How do you think you have got to this point? Was there something that made you think hmmmm I really need to work on this? Was it the fact you felt like you were losing your wife? Did she like all of a sudden just withdrawl and act like this just didn't matter to her anymore she was done?
What got me to this point? My wife announced in our first MC session 6 weeks ago that she wanted a D. It sobers you up pretty quickly.
But now, there can be no physical contact between us because she says that I would only be doing it out of obligation. She is so far gone that she is not interested in me any more.
She's taken off her ring and has started looking for that new STUD! I'm so willing to work my a$$ off to be that to her but there is no more interest on her part. I even sent her an email to that affect just after the MC session. But, she just isn't interested in working on it.
Life pretty much sucks right now...because I'm working to be better for her through DB and stuff. But, it doesn't seem to be working. She is on the prowl and I'm 13-year-old carcass.
I wish I could offer better advice right now. I'm just a little in the dumps. I just caught her in a lie about where she's been...and I'm waiting for her to come home. I don't know how to handle this. So, I'm a little bit freaking out.
Maybe tomorrow, I can have better advice for you guys. K
But she is still sleeping in the same bed with you. That I don't get. When I was headed for divorce in my first marriage, we went to a C, and the first thing I asked for was for my H to move into the guest room, which he did. Even though I wanted it, it made me soooooo sad. I swear his moving into the guest room made me know I was serious, and that moment was the saddest for me of the whole D process, sadder than when I moved, sadder than when the judge banged the gavel.
I guess it's like when someone gets the cancer diagnosis... THAT is the worst possible moment. Your whole life changes in an instant, and whatever happens, you can never have your innocence stripped from you again in quite the same way.
Quote: She's taken off her ring and has started looking for that new STUD!
You are almost certainly underestimating your W's character if you think she is out looking for a "stud". You would be lucky if this is what she is doing because she will almost certainly be disappointed with just being serviced by a "stud". What she is probably looking for is a man to "husband" her in every sense of the word. You probably still have a chance to get her back until she finds a man who actually falls in love with her and wants to have sex with her. This is what happened to a friend of mine who was the HDW. Once she found a HD man who loved her, her only regrets about the divorce had to do with the kids. However, I wouldn't necessarily advise playing the kid card. My H tried to do this just a bit when I first took my stand on the issue and this just made me furious along the lines of "Don't you dare accuse me of caring more about sex than the kids! The kids are one of the main reasons I've put up with this cr*ppy situation for the last 17 years.".
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
KEB, I agree with Jenny. If your wife was only out for sex, she would have been gone 13 years ago.
The fact that she has stuck around while her main love language was not being met, is a testament to how much she loves you.
Here is what I would suggest: Stop waiting for her 'permission' to proceed with your shows of desire. See if she starts to soften up a bit if YOU attempt to be the "stud" in her life. Do a 180, in other words.
Maybe you could write her a sexy letter every Friday, and guage the results and see how it goes. Expect the first couple ones to be met with derision. After that, I would expect that she would start to soften and at least be interested in what you have to say.
I was very much in your wife's shoes. So angry that I couldn't--and didn't want to--hear anything that my H had to say with respect to my desirability. He forfeited the right to talk about how much he desires me when he went years neglecting me sexually.
But when he started paying me sexual attention again (when I was rebuffing him, just like your W) I couldn't help it..I just felt myself melting within. I couldn't keep the Ice Queen thing going. HE was the one I loved and the one I wanted.
I still would have attempted to get the marriage annulled if he hadn't stepped up to the plate, but he was the one I loved.
I don't know if this makes sense to you or not, and quite frankly it doesn't matter. All that matters is that you see the point your W is trying to make and validate it. You are very much trying to downplay the impact that sex plays in a person's life right now (because you are disgusted with your wife's behavior and your own) and that will surely drive her away. Validate her and do a few 180's and see what happens!
Good luck, and have you set any personal goals for yourself? How is that going?
Quote: unfortunately your W may not be as receptive or patient as GEL. She might have the thought that I had on occasion which is "Yeah, you love me like Mr.Brady loves Alice. I don't need that kind of love.".
You are absolutely correct here. KEBall, keep in mind that I am able to be much more understanding today than I was a year ago too. My frame of mind has changed on this because of his attempts to meet my needs in other ways, and at times stretch to try to do the things that are difficult for him...if he had not done this I'm pretty sure we would have ended up in divorce court.
12 short months ago, I figured what the hell! Why even try anymore?! I was emotionally exhausted, spent! I had nothing more to give and kept getting absolutely nothing. At this point I did consider an affair, I didn't go there...and I'm truly glad I didn't, but I was definitely of the frame of mind "what else do you expect me to do?"
KEBall, you and your W are going to a C, this is great!!! Give your W now what she's been asking for all along. If for some reason she says she's now not sexually attracted to you...do other things to let her know she's loved. Notes, cook dinners, help clean the house, take care of the kids (if you have them) whatever it is that you think will make her feel cared for.
Let me ask you this too k? I've noticed that my H is a much different person than he is at work, he's much more assertive at work than he is at home. I'm always left to make decisions...to be honest, this wasn't the man I was initially attracted to...he was confident, assertive, funny etc. (No he wasn't sexually assertive, but assertiveness is a quality he has). Confidence is often a very attractive quality to women...are you confident or passive?
I love him with all my heart. But it is just tearing my heart out to much. Also I don't want to end up cheating and feel like I am on the verge. I don't ever want to hurt anyone that way. 