Quote: I can't imagine a pain or unhappiness inside me so intense that it would cause me to look outside my marriage.
I believe that most affairs start out innocently enough. Talking, sharing thoughts or ideas and then progresses. But the person denies that it is progressing into anything wrong and by the time they realize they are definitely doing something wrong, it is too late b/c emotional bonds have formed. This wasn't true for me, but it seems to be true for many others, perhaps your W included. So, Michele says do not attack unless you want SP to defend their behavior and/or attack you back. Think hard about that Jabez. If my H would focus more on his feelings and how what I did made him feel, things would be much better between us than they are now because instead of focusing on his feelings, he's focusing on the betrayal itself. How wrong it was and he's punishing me. Whether he will ever admit that or not is irrelevant. He is. My H attacks me every time we talk about it, which isn't very often b/c from my perspective, I'd rather avoid the attacks. True guilt comes in, at least for me, when I see genuine hurt or confusion in my H's eyes. If he could just look at me with tears in his eyes and ask me why, why would you do this to us....my walls would come down instantly. But he doesn't do that. He calls me a slut or a whore. That is NOT going to make me sorry, at least not at that moment. And that is what he longs to see from me~that I am sorry. But he's been so busy making me pay, that he's missing all the genuine emotion that's going on inside each of us. What I meant when I said that a cheater's worst enemy is their own mind is this: I already know what I've done is wrong. I already feel guilt. My life has changed dramatically b/c of what I did, things will NEVER be the same. I don't need to be told that by H over and over. Hearing it from him only makes me defend. When left alone with my own thoughts, that's when it eats me up. I don't know if your W craves from you what I crave from my H, but if she does, the best advice I can offer you is: Stop namecalling Stop judging That doesn't mean you have to condone it Jabez. It doesn't. But you only have to say something once~the A was wrong. She won't forget that you said it, I promise you.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and feelings.
Quote: I believe that most affairs start out innocently enough. Talking, sharing thoughts or ideas and then progresses. But the person denies that it is progressing into anything wrong and by the time they realize they are definitely doing something wrong, it is too late b/c emotional bonds have formed. This wasn't true for me, but it seems to be true for many others, perhaps your W included
I think this is how the A started. WAW shared her unhappiness in our M w/OM and grew into an EA, then PA.
Quote: If my H would focus more on his feelings and how what I did made him feel, things would be much better between us than they are now
Do you want H to share his feelings w/you?
At one point I asked WAW to help me get some closure on us. I shared my hurt and wanted to know what went wrong. Initially she said that helping me get closure wasn't her job. Later she cited apathy in our marriage, then clarified that perhaps it was just she who was apathetic. She just seems hell bent on not giving me a ounce of info about what went wrong. The message seems to be its over b/c WAW said so and everyone else just has to accept it.
Quote: What I meant when I said that a cheater's worst enemy is their own mind is this: I already know what I've done is wrong. I already feel guilt.
I don't get the impression that WAW thinks what she is doing is wrong. She wrote "this is about me and my happiness". I've never heard anything to express feelings of guilt or sorrow. I'm not sure if her admitted rude attitude toward me is driven by guilt or if she was truthful when she said that she is rude to me so that I don't get any false impression that she is coming back.
Quote: I don't know if your W craves from you what I crave from my H
May I be so bold as to ask what you crave from your H?
Before last summer I tried to guess WAW's Love Language(s), she would not tell me. Looking back at our early R, before kids, and at the A, I'm pretty sure I guessed wrong and I'm pretty sure I know now that it is Quality Time, but since we are physically separated and she avoids seeing me like I have the plague, I doubt she is craving that from me. I think that if I mention forgiveness she will reply that I have a self-rightous attitude. I feel stuck b/t a rock and a hard place.
Quote: the best advice I can offer you is: Stop namecalling Stop judging
Yes, I do have stong feelings about the A, but I've never called her names but I have judged her. I've done a lot of reading and I think that I know the underlying reason for the A and the underlying message of the A. There is more to it than just me. More to it than just her&I, but I don't know how to address that w/o a neuclear reaction.
I read a book called "Undressing Infidelity - Why more wives are unfaithful." The author interviewed wives who had affairs and presented each story. The author's assesment as to why wives have affairs was that affairs are a form of escapism whether it be from the perceived monotony of the M or running from problems. I'm guessing that WAW felt some of both.
Here's a question for anyone who wants to take a stab at it, I keep reading about SP's in an A but appear to still show feelings for their M. In my case WAW says that she's moved on and so should I. She wants no communication w/me and admitedly acts rudely toward me. She seems to enjoy when I go dark and I get no results from it.
She has responed to a few questions that I asked of her, but I get the impression that she feels like she needs to be in control of the R. What she says and the way she acts makes me feel like she is determined to end the M. She just keeps circling around to I have no feelings for you anymore.
I sometimes wonder of DB'ing will work in an sitch like mine.
Does this sound like anyone else's sich? If so can you let me know something that worked?
If they are genuine, yes. H says all of these things that I feel are revenge are in fact his feelings. This is how he FEELS he says. But in that case, no then, I really don't want to hear about it. A man who hits his wife can claim that that was how he "felt" at the time. When I kissed OM, I could claim that that was what I was "feeling" at the time. Just because you are "feeling" a certain way doesn't make the actions justified or mean that it's a responsible way to behave. So to a certain extent, yes, I want to know the pain I've caused. But only if he's going to talk about it in a constructive manner, like where we can go from here and what I can do to make things better. Does that make sense?
Quote: Later she cited apathy in our marriage
I can relate to that. That's why I've had such a hard time with terms like detaching and going dark because, for me, those terms have negative connotations.
Quote: The message seems to be its over b/c WAW said so and everyone else just has to accept it.
Has your W historically been the type to bottle her true feelings so as not to cause a rift? Is it possible she is trying to reclaim some control in her life that she perceives she lost?
Quote: she said that she is rude to me so that I don't get any false impression that she is coming back.
Just keep being nice. Kill her with kindness. Even if it doesn't save your M, someday she will look back on this and have a deep respect for how you handled it.
Quote: I think that if I mention forgiveness she will reply that I have a self-rightous attitude
Yes, I think you'd have to tread very carefully using the term forgiveness. You've said you judged her in the past and that could make forgiveness seem very self righteous. That doesn't mean you couldn't bring it up, but you'd have to think long and hard about your choice of words, what your goal would be in discussing it, etc. I'll keep checking in on you!!
Heather
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Quote: Has your W historically been the type to bottle her true feelings so as not to cause a rift? Is it possible she is trying to reclaim some control in her life that she perceives she lost?
BINGO! You hit the nail on the head. WAW has said that the never said anything b/c she didn't want to rock the boat. She said that she feels like she has lived her life the way others want her to.
And now I feel like she has a controlling death grip on our R. The more I pull, the more she is going to pull, but the less I pull doesn't translate her pulling less.
Her story is kinda complicated b/c she suffer emotial trauma in her teen years before she met me. B/c it was never dealt with, I think that she stuffed it all inside and now she is letting it out and is not the same person anymore. She is self-centered, self-absorbed and selfish, but I haven't told her that.
It seems to me that "everybody else" on this BB has a SP who can't decide b/t the OP or the SP. In my case SP has decided on OP and thus I feel a step behind everyone else. I could 180 myself in a Budist Monk playing tabla drums and she wouldn't notice b/c she's not here . . . physically, mentally or emotionally.
Here's a question for you. WAW will only communicate w/me via email. Twice in the past she has written that whe will try to be more civil to me. Recently she wrote to say that she is rude to me b/c she is afraid that any niceties extend to me would be misinterpreted as her wanting to come back. She has no desire to revive our R.
IMO, no response is needed, she's not asking you a question that needs answering.
In my case SP has decided on OP
I'll tell you something else. Somebody who is truly done with someone and has moved on doesn't bother writing notes saying like what you say she wrote you above.
I didn't reply. I just read it and thought, "Well at least she recognizes that she is behaving rudely toward me. At least those aren't her true feelings. Maybe once the sparkle is off the OP, she will act like she truely feels."
Until then, I'll work on me, have fun w/D's, be nice to WAW and do fun things that I've never done before.
I've been dark for quite a while so here's an update on my sitch:
WAW & OM went away in July to "celebrate" their 1-yr anniversary. I called W and asked her if she was going to tell D13 & D15 about her vaca and she asked if I was trying to blackmail her. I said no, I just want them to know the truth about what is going on. She told the girls. The vaca caused hard feelings between W&I and W's dad&I, but he's a cheese-less tunnel. Every so often I forget that, but the time periods between my forgetfulness are getting longer.
I went dark for 6 weeks. Only communicating via email about the girls. This was more for me to help me detach than to make her miss me or want me. I feel more detached and better for it. Her seperation from me is her loss.
Last week there were two curious events.
Since the girls live w/me, W usually drops them off and leaves w/o coming into the house. I was out until 8:30 one night W had the girls. I came home to find WAW inside talking w/D13. I was surprised and cheerfully asked "Hi, what's up?" WAW said, "Nothing, I was just spending some time w/D13". I said, "Oh OK", and continue unloading my car. I see WAW leaving and cheerfully say, "good night". She kind of mumbles a "So long". This is actually a change for the good. In the past she stated that she was purposfully rude to me so that I didn't confuse any niceness to her wanting to come back.
When I dropped the girls off w/WAW (at a "neutral" site), D15 said she needed a phone number and to call her when I got home. When I got home, I called WAW's apt, but there was no answer. I called WAW's cell and she answered. I asked "Is D15 there?" and WAW said, "No, she's not here". I said "What? Where is she?" confused not not angry. WAW said, "We're still in the car, she's right here." We both laughed and I wondered.
This week two more "good" things happened.
Since school has now started, we've been "together" 2 nights in row. During parent night @ school, it was a bit awkward at first, but I was friendly and tried to be relaxed and funny. By the end of the two hours, we were glancing at each other and smiling at things teachers said that only we would find amusing.
The next night at the girls' band show, I mentioned that I got an email from our college alma mater and that they were having a reunion at a football game, she asked when. This struck me as odd, because she doesn't like football. I told her that I didn't remember and that I would let her know.
When I talked to a DB coach, she told me to put the onus of doing things together on WAW and I haven't mentioned anything about R or us or M since who knows when. I'm thinking that I will email the college reunion info to her and later ask if she got it. I'll just let it at that, I won't ask if she wants to go.
One of the things about DBing is to act & monitor. The odd thing is that when ever I email WAW and ask questions about me (act), and some have had to do w/R & M, she always responds and I learn something about her feelings and thoughts (monitor). I don't do this often, every other month or so. I'm somewhat of a "literalist", so I want to ask what are your feelings on the DB rule of "No R talk". Does it mean never and to stay far, far away from it, or does it mean in the context of begging and pleading?
Another thought/question. I know of several "marriage intensive weekends" for couples in crisis. Each says that it is common to have one spouse who has decided to end the marriage still go to one of these weekends. I have the feeling that "timing is everything" in asking WAW to go to one of these weekends. I'm not looking at this as panacea, more like a "class" to teach us methods to see if we can be together again. Has anyone done this? How did you approach WAS? Was WAS involved w/OP at the time?
I came out of the dark and made contact w/WAW not about the girls but about me. I asked some questions about me. The only response I received was "I'm not coming back."
Yesterday my C told me that I don't let meself experience my full set of emotions, meaning that I don't argue w/ or let WAW see me angry. I told him that at this point arguing or being angry in front of WAW is not very attractive. After her response, I feel like arguing and letting go of my anger, but I'm here instead.
This is soooo frustrating! AAGGGHHHHH!
Now it's time for me to step back and see the sitch for what it is. I realize that this is just WAW being her selfish MLC self and pray to God that she "out grows it" and/or gets some C help.
