Now you've got me thinking. As you can easily see, I signed up here on June 7th. When I look back at the calendar I was keeping back then, I find that I was mistaken: the big change happened on June 19th. That was the first time we had ML in I don't know how long. Since then, it's been pretty close to once a week.
So I suppose it's remotely possible that she's reading what I post here. I have a hard time believing it though. I have no doubt that she would be horrified to find that I was both posting intimate details of our SL on the internet, and that I was discussing it with strangers. She may not want to discuss sex, but I just can't believe that she would see what I've posted here and not call me on it.
I think your wife’s actions are a result of your own. The letter you wrote was very sweet. She is showing you that she appreciates it. Maybe she even gets it.
I’m just like you. I analyze things to death and want a logical explanation for every single last thing. I’m thrilled that your W is slowly but surely coming around. I think you should just tell her that you enjoyed your last encounter, without trying to determine the reasons it happened.
My H and I used to have formulaic sex for years. I think that very early on, I was the one who was naïve and inhibited, and he got used to just doing certain things with me. By the time I came around, he had lost interest. Lately, my H has also being trying new things, and sometimes I am just dying to question him about it and wanting to know why and what and how and when….it takes a lot of effort to keep my mouth shut, but I do. There was that time a few months ago when he was giving me a backrub, when he asked me not to move at all, eased off my clothes, and kept rubbing my back throughout, while he ML to me. It was very intense. Boy, I wanted to jump up and down, explain to him that this was passion, ask him why this was different, if I had done something…etc. After a lot of mental battle, I told him that this was a very erotic experience for me, and left it at that.
He will do something new or different quite often now. So will I. We don’t make a big deal of it. It is nice to get to this point.
One thing my H hates is playing 20 questions. He hates it when I repeat a question. He hates me wanting to know what is going on in his head. Slowly but surely, I am learning to let things be.
If I want to know why he did something I liked, is it because I can try to get him to do that again? Surely, that is manipulative and he is no idiot. I find that this line of thinking helps temper what comes out of my mouth, lol.
Good luck, WB. I think the ride might be fun from here on out.
I think that I'm finally coming to really understand that W doesn't like to talk. I've always wanted to talk things out, but W has always resisted. I think I got much, much more from C than W did. Talking really helps me. But just like different LL's, I'm coming to see that W is different in that area as well. She's uncomfortable talking. And believe it or not, it's just through the responses I've gotten here today that my eyes have been opened to that.
I've read so much in books and on this board about intimacy being complete openness with each other. To me, that meant that we could and did fell comfortable talking about anything and making ourselves vulnerable to each other. Now I'm seeing that W may have a different definition. She may see opening up physically and emotionally as being necessary to true intimacy, but talking about those actions and emotions as completely unnecessary.
I also like your reasoning about being manipulative, but I don’t think it applies to me. My interest is more along the lines of trying to prevent torpedoing things than in trying to manipulate W into a repeat performance. What your reasoning does for me is to help me see that there are other ways to interpret what seems real straightforward to me.
I'm still confused, still trying to understand, still trying to analyze. But I'm learning to keep my mouth shut.
Intimacy is a nebulous thing. I agree that it involves being open with each other, but it doesn’t have to involve endless conversation. For some couples, it probably involves less conversation. I am a chatterbox and a busy bee by nature, and I know my H appreciates ‘comfortable silence.’
I read some of your old posts and your wife seems to hide behind a big wall. This is hard. While my H hates talking, there are some times when he is more open to it. We have had some tough conversations, and as the need arises, we continue to have them. Maybe the trick for people like you and me is to figure out what things need addressing/questioning and what things don’t.
Still, the fact remains that you feel closer to her today than you did a year ago. The wall is coming down. I don’t have any advice right now, but I hope that wall keeps coming down for you.
I have another, maybe even bigger problem with W not being willing to talk. Quite simply, I know what W does and doesn't do that bothers me; I don't know what I do or don't that bothers her. I want to make myself and our R better, but without input from her, I'm shooting in the dark and hoping to hit something.
Clearly, I've figured out some things that needed to be changed - and I've changed them. But how many more are out there? What are they?
For example. I could tell her, “W, I believe that you put more value on the dogs than you do on me.” She can then argue, she can agree and tell me that's just the way it is, she can choose to take actions to show me that that's not the case, she can choose to dismiss my feelings, ... But the point is: she's aware of how I feel and can choose either to do something about it or not.
To pull something kind of similar out of the air, suppose W feels that I place more value on my job than on her. In this scenario, I know that's not the case, but she believes it and that belief causes problems in the R. The problem is that I KNOW it's not the case, so it would never occur to me that she would believe such a thing. Obviously, I would then have no reason to try to make her see that her belief is erroneous – after all, in this scenario I don’t even know that she feels that way. I will be blamed for something that isn’t true and about which I don’t even have a clue. So assuming this scenario to be fact, how would I EVER get myself out of the proverbial doghouse?
I know there are others here in the same boat. I know that I’m not the only one who has made an effort to improve himself and his M only to find that he is the perfect husband. But that IS what I get from W – if I can get anything out of her at all. I would be OK with perfect if there was even the slightest glimmer of a possibility that it was true, but sadly, I know that I’m far from perfect.
But wildebube, isn't that HER responsibility, to let you know if she doesn't like something that you are/aren't doing? She's an adult. Why not just operate under the assumption that you are doing everything right, unless and until she clearly states the contrary?
I have the opposite problem, of course. My W lets me know each and every thing I do that is wrong. Clearly. Unfortunately, what is wrong is EVERY THING I do. Okay, that's an exaggeration, but not much.
I don't know what I do or don't that bothers her. I want to make myself and our R better, but without input from her, I'm shooting in the dark and hoping to hit something. I found I had to rely a lot on body language, eye rolling, sighs, gestures, that sort of thing. It isn't easy, mistaken impressions happen, but you can actually get quite good at it. I discovered once from a sigh that I had spattered water drops on the bathroom mirror shortly after she had cleaned it. I cleaned the mirror (right then) and am became more careful about that. At first, it was a long list of trivial things, it seemed hard to navigate the mine field, and I resented the long list of seemingly petty things. But eventually it came down to paying attention to what was important to her and being considerate.
Now, she still became a WAW. Your mileage may vary.
Quote: …isn't that HER responsibility, to let you know if she doesn't like something that you are/aren't doing?
HD, at some level I KNOW that you’re right, but I’m having trouble just leaving it at that. That’s because I know that there are things bothering her and because nearly 30 years of experience tells me that she’s not going to talk about them. I’ve stumbled across a few – even a blind pig stumbles across an acorn every once in a while – and I’ve acted on those acorns that I’ve found. When I’ve acted, I’ve seen the dynamic of our R change radically. In short, I know I do things wrong and I know that addressing those things yields positive results in the R. So I want to address my shortcomings – but this pig is blind and needs someone to point things out to him.
Your sitch may be diametrically opposed to mine, but the end result is the same. When W says that I’m perfect, I don’t know what I’m doing wrong. When MrsHD says that you do everything wrong, you can’t tell what you really are doing wrong.
The fact is, I know that none of you can help me with this. I can’t make W talk and neither can any of you. And absent her telling me what she’s thinking and feeling, I’ll never know. So I’ll just keep rooting around for acorns and hoping for the best.
WB, Well here we are. The two perfect spouses of the board.
Too bad the rest of these suckas haven't figured out the secrets of our successes, LOL.
Seriously, I am in your boat and know how you feel. You keep getting the same line "Everything's fine..you are a great husband/wife" but your gut is telling you something different.
I have had success lately in drawing it out of him a little at a time. I couldn't even tell you what my so-called strategy is...I've been winging it and it's working so far. Sorry I have nothing more concrete to offer. My H will talk about our R, and even likes to do it, so long as it's not criticism, so that is a huge plus in my favor. However, he still won't tell me how I can better meet his needs. At times, WB, I wonder if he even knows if he has needs and, if so, what those are.
Perhaps you could think about your own need to "find things out"...can you refine what it is you need to know and only focus on that? Think of a few pressing issues and focus only on those..that way you won't overwhelm her natural tendency towards privacy. Cause, really, I think it's one thing to gravitate towards privacy and it's another to shun intimacy, kwim?
So maybe you could set a timetable for yourself..figure out what is really necessary for you to find out and leave the rest alone.
I'm wondering if more careful qustioning (still limited) would make a difference.
Open ended questions are usually advised for promoting conversation, but in this case, I think they're worse than useless. I'd try very, very specific yes/no or short multiple choice type questions. No essay questions.
"I intended the letter to be a loving gift. Did it feel like one to you?" "Was there anything in it that you took exception to?"
"I sense that you don't like it when I leave the toilet seat up. Is that true?" "Doing grocery shopping together is one of my favorite things. Do you find it as enjoyable as I do?"
Positive info might help, too: "When you tell me what you're thinking [even better to have a specific example], I feel loved. I really appreciate being able to have that connection with you."
"I want to give you the kind of nonverbal communication that is important to you, even though it's hard for me to be aware of those things. I really appreciate when you make efforts to communicate with me in the ways that are important to me, but more difficult for you."
