Can you give us an example of something that specific that you've said...a part of a conversation between you two where you feel you've been clear to her, and what she's said? Maybe that would help.
Quote: Can you give us an example of something that specific that you've said...a part of a conversation between you two where you feel you've been clear to her, and what she's said? Maybe that would help.
GEL
Sure. (First of all, I feel like I should continue to apologize to you, CeMar, for hijacking your thread, but then again our sitches are so simlilar, that maybe you don't mind).
This would be a typical conversation. While we haven't had it a hundred times, we HAVE had it probably a dozen or so times over the past 10 years:
Mrs. Choc: You're grouchy a lot lately.
Choc.: I know; I'm sorry.
MC: Are you pissed off about something?
Choc.: Nothing that we haven't talked about before.
MC: (sensing "the sex talk" coming, and wanting to avoid it) Oh. (turning it to HER, as she always does:) Well, my life is no picnic either.
Choc.: Well, you asked me what was bothering ME, and I'm just not happy about our relationship. We don't hold hands, you pull away when I give you anything more than a kiss on the cheek, and we NEVER make love anymore.
MC: (snotty) Oh, I know, I'm such a horrible wife, aren't I?
Choc: I didn't SAY you were a horrible wife; you asked me what was bothering me, and I'm telling you that the distance and lack of intimacy between us is what makes me grouchy.
MC: (either crying or screaming usually at this point) Well, I'm just totally overwhelmed. Everyone's "at" me, making demands. I just don't know how much more of it I can take.
Choc.: Do I make demands on you?
MC: Why do you always say that?! I didn't SAY you did, I just said I'm feeling totally overwhelmed. You have no idea what I do around here! If I don't do it, it doesn't get done. So excuse me if I don't feel sexy at the end of the day of cleaning up dog throw-up and cooking and cleaning and folding laundry, etc.!
Choc.: Don't I help?
MC: Yes, Choc., you do. But the kids do NOTHING, and it all falls back on me.
Choc.: Then tell the kids to help you. Who's the adult around here?
MC: It's easier just to do it myself; I just don't have the energy to fight with them all the time.
Choc.: It shouldn't BE a fight; you tell them what you expect of them, and what the consequences are if they don't do it. It's totally up to them. But I do more than I suspect 90% of husbands do to help around here, and you're working your a$$ off, so if you're overwhelmed, it's because the kids aren't pulling their share.
MC: Well, maybe I would feel more affectionate if you weren't so grouchy all the time. I rememember when you used to make me laugh; what happened to THAT guy?
Choc.: I'm sorry if I'm not as happy as I used to be. But you know how important affection and touching and -- yes, sex -- is to me, and when we don't ML, I'm going to be grouchy.
etc.,
etc.
Every conversation either breaks down into:
1) You're not as attractive to me, because you're grouchy all the time, and we've been apart so long that it's going to take a long, LONG time before things improve;
2) I know I'm not giving you what you want; I'm just a horrible wife, and I can see that I don't make you happy;
3) I'm just totally stressed out and overwhelmed, and exhausted from all the "demands" placed on me. (Choc.: "Do I make demands?" Mrs. Choc.: "No, but even when you don't, I KNOW what you want; it's written all over your face. So I know I'm not giving you what you want.")
I'll respond to this further in a bit...but right off the bat here's a though. In that conversation it sounds to me that she's needing help with the kids at least....what do you do to help reinforce the rules?
I know many women feel it's better just to "do it" rather than fight about it when it comes to things around the house. It's often faster just to do things yourself, I understand that. It's a common trap I see women fall into, myself included.
It sounds to me that perhaps your wife is a stay-at-home mom? Which, is a tough job! What do you think you can do to help reinforce the things she asks the kids to do...are there consequences for them not doing their "chores"?
I understand you probably do quite a bit around the house too from your conversation....so does my H....but, until recently he hadn't been very helpful with our son. He really thought he was doing soooo much around the house...and he was, outside...mowing, yardwork etc. While I'm trying to get everything I need done inside...and keep up with our son, not an easy task at all. Sometimes my stuff just didn't get done.
This is just an ovbservation...what do you think? GEL
That's the problem. In the past 10 years, we've instituted probably TEN "chores" lists, programs, complete with rewards and/or consequences, and every one has failed. The kids (now D18, D16, S12 and S8) view them as a joke, because they know that we won't follow thru on them.
My wife IS a stay-at-home mom, and I'm not there to enforce these things other than the evenings and the weekends. MY WIFE ALWAYS caves in, and "undoes" everything that I try to enforce. The kids have been conditioned that if they whine enough, nag enough and fight her enough, that she will eventually give in.
She uses "I have four kids!" as a crutch, IMHO. I've tried to point to her that -- while they were little, and the work involved may have been true -- that people actually HAVE large families intentionally to HELP around the house (farms, family businesses, but it applies to the household, too), and that having four grown, able-bodied and otherwise bright children should be a NET PLUS , not a minus!
I'm sure she DOES want me to come home and be "The Enforcer," but I get tired of being the hard-a$$ all the time, when she won't back up the system when I'm not there.
Besides, even if all of this DOES lead to fatigue on her part, how does that affect her giving me a freaking BACK SCRATCH every now and again? She does this for the kids, and even the danmed DOG, CAT AND BIRD get more affection than I do.
I can understand your frustration on this, you do seem to be in a catch 22.
"The kids (now D18, D16, S12 and S8) view them as a joke, because they know that we won't follow thru on them"
This is just a thought here on this...I know you are sick of being the enforcer....BUT...yes there's a but here. If you do not stand firm, you give her that out to say you don't do it. A good friend of mine experienced a similar problem....only she was the enforcer, her H was the one who always caved. She finally put her foot down and made it VERY clear to her kids (2 teens, 1 younger) that if SHE gave them chores and they didn't follow-through on them then SHE would enforce the consequences...Dad couldn't let them off the hook on this.
Now, I know this will be a HUGE pain for you...BUT (don't you love those buts). Perhaps you need to do this too....even if your W caves and does what she's asking them to do...consequences still need to happen for them not doing what they were told/asked to do.
Just a thought here...but perhaps you could tell your W you want to try an experiment...then outline the above. Where there are still consequences for the kids if someone else does their chores and they don't. I know that will be VERY tough with older teens because at this point I believe there is a respect issue at play. But make it clear to her that YOU will enforce the consequences if she doesn't...then do it. Make it VERY clear to your kids that mom can't let them off the hook, just as you can't let them off the hook if she sets something up with them.
This is a respect issue between you and your W as well. YOU MUST BACK EACH OTHER UP ON THIS! Your kids need to see a united front here...or they will not respect you on it and take you seriously.
Do you think your W would go for this, if you put it to her as "Honey, I know you feel overwhelemed with everything you have to do. I want to try something but I need your help to make it work....."
I don't envy you this one....but with a united front you two can address it....then she wouldn't be able to use it as an excuse.
Have you guys ever thought about her getting out of the house and going (or going back) to paid work? It may not net you any more money, but there are other benefits. Doesn't sound like you would need much childcare. I haven't read all about your sitch. But I used to be a SAHM and found the return to work very energizing. I'm happier and more giving and more fun and it's been pretty good for everyone overall. But everyone does have to pitch in and do work around the house. We also have someone come in to clean every other week. Big advantage is that both my SO and I are home at the same time to be ENFORCERS! Just a thought. Oh, and SO and I also share management of household activities, child activities, etc. I'm not in charge anymore of managing all the juggling and details of all that stuff. He is as much in charge of it as I am.
I think it might have worked years ago, but I honestly think it's too late. The kids' bad habits are so ingrained, it would be WWIII in order to effect any meaningful change around that house, and I'M not up for that.
I resent that I work so hard to provide a nice livelihood, and a nice home (we are in the upper 3% of incomes), and my family just trashes it. My wife and my two teen daughters bug me to buy new furniture, paint, or otherwise fix up the place, but it's hard to get motivated to spend $$$ on furniture that's only going to have piles of laundry all over it. I mean, the place is TRASHED.
I think this is contributing a lot to my unhappiness, actually -- as much or even moreso than the sex. A few months ago, I sat and thought about some of the things that make me really content and comfortable. At the top of my list were "Order", "peace and quiet" and "lots of physical affection and sex."
My life is a case study AGAINST any of those three things.
We've talked about, but her going back to school is probably the better option. She's taken some classes here and there over the years, but most recently she's taken them online, which I've told her is a BIG MISTAKE, in my opinion. Or at least I told her to mix it up with an online class but then one that's on-campus, so she can get the heck outta Dodge every once in awhile.
But the CONCEPT is the same, and you are absolutely right. She would not only feel better about HERSELF, but she needs to be less available to the children in my opinion. They definitely take her for granted, and she allows them to.
What if you sat the whole family down this weekend and told them that the messyness and dis array of the house will not be tolerated any longer. Now mind you, you might have to go through the house yourself and pick up all those clothes falling all over the furniture and pick stuff up to get it to where its not messy. I would take everything out of the living room and put it on whoever's bed it belongs to. I did that once to my son. He kept leaving stuff all over the house,
I think it would make DW feel like even more of a failure, that I had to do that. It would scream "YOU haven't been able to handle this; now I'M getting involved!
