AS I recall there was stunned silence as I flounced outta the room in tears. While it sounded like anger, it was actually coming from frustration and hurt. It wasn't an attempt to negate his need, it was an expression of my fear that he wanted something from me that I was never going to be capable of giving.
I have tried so hard to reconstruct our earliest :ahem: conversations regarding our SSM and have been unable to do so. We both can remember certain "flavors" of our interactions, but little specifics.
I think I was so entrenched in my own hurt that NOP couldn't even get to the actual topic he was heading toward. I think everytime he started with an "I am hurt" my own internal reaction was similar to "well, buddy, you want to hear about hurt..!" I think all I would hear was that he wanting something more from me, and my own list would start clacking away in the background. Kind of a "Sorry, can't hear a word of what you're saying, my own pain is screeching a bit too loudly right now."
I enjoy touching you. I know that you have told me you particularily like it when I touch you as only I can outside the bedroom (how's that for saying it when others are reading it?). I want to touch you in ways that make you know I love you.
1) Do you want me to touch you at all on the neck, arms, bottom, etc.? I've been confused about this as I've heard you say several different things?
2) At one time when I was "touching" you everyday for a while, you wanted me to stop. I don't know why that was. Do you remember? Why was it? What did I do that made you not want me to keep touching you?
3) I get mixed signals about your enjoyment of me kissing you. Then sometimes because of this as well as other forms of touching...you just want me to stop..you pull away and don't tell me why. Do you think we could get to the point in our R that you could be honest with me right away and you initiate and tell me what it is that is going on..so that I can learn and it can be fixed. Do you think that maybe AT SOME POINT down the road there would be the possiblity of communicating right then and then being able to forgive and go on...and it just being a bump in the road? No rush..just possibly some day.
4) There are times that your tone of voice sounds harsh to me. It hurts me the way that you answer me. Frequently the tone of your voice in answering me is impatient and condescending. I'm even sorry I asked. I don't say anything because I don't want to be complaining. Is this something we could talk about sometime?
5) I do remember saying that about our week being peacful without you. There were a lot of arguments between us at that time and it was wonderful to have laughter and joy. Do I enjoy life without the B that I know and love...no. Was it pressure free not having arguing for a few days..yes. It was just a comment for that week based on what was happening. I love being with you, spending time with you and our family. That's what I enjoy when there is no undercurrent or arguing. I apologize for any hurt those comments brought to you. Please forgive me.
6) As for fixing up. What do you want? Sometimes I have done extra things even a new outfit...no comments. The kids notice..even comment on new hair. It's ok, I've learned to laugh to myself and not let it bother me. What are you looking for with flirting? LIke how I ran my foot up your leg to your ??? at a restaurant a few months ago? Or??? Have you wanted any of this from me in the past few months? Please answer this question.
7) Ok. I'll ask for what I need help with. There are many times that you do so willingly and I appreciate it. I know there are times you don't want to as you don't exactly say words, but moan or groan when asked..like I am your mother. I usually quit asking after this. However, I'll just ignore it, I suppose. Is that what you suggest? I don't blame you for not wanting to help. Who does? Not me either. I'll admit it makes me angry..because then I feel like your mother. I don't feel very sexy being your mom.
8) I said something about not losing my patience on another post and James John said that when I learned to never feel overwhelmed or get impatient to write a book as to how it was done...I'll be a multi-millionaire. I'm not looking for an out. My desire to control my mouth is for me, believe it or not, and not you. I don't wish to offend you...but I'm not doing it to please you, I'm doing it for personal growth. That gives me more incentive. However, I cannot promise that I will be perfect and not feel overwhelmed. I mean can you promise that you will never get impatient with us again? Can anyone? I think that is what you want me to say...and I think it is too high of an expectation and a promise I cannot fulfill.
If you or anyone else here wants to throw rocks at me for being unable to promise that. So be it. I agree 100% with Mrs. Nop..I will never call you a liar again. Now that I can agree to. That I can control. There are many items of this magniture and nature that are very hurtful that I will not do. No problemo...I've also promised not to bring up certain things of the past...I have not..since I promised you..I have not...I control that. I choose to. It is a big thing that matters and can be controlled. I choose to do it and I do.
So now this is huge long post. Good luck answering this!
Hi Nice and Barney,and everyone else - What an amazingly riveting thread, so many issues surfacing, so many opportunities for everyone to reflect on.
One thought that struck me, Nice, is the speed at which things are expected to move. Seems like the 'problem' has been 17 years in the making, perhaps it needs 17 months to recover? And just maybe, there are 170 little things to put right? You are both is such a great spot, neither of you wants out. So, no deadline, right? Often, we need a few days or weeks to settle with a change we have made. In this case, time can be your best friend. Nice started posting on Feb 8th, a mere 9 days ago So much discussion, but has there really been enough time to sit with these thoughts, feel through them?
The way I see it, sex has become the icon of the 'problem' when in actual fact Barney is saying he is looking for the quality of relationship, and that the rest will follow. Barney, please correct me if I'm wrong . Nice, I am finding it easier to relate to your perspective as I was/am there myself And from what I can see, Nice is lucky, lucky, as Barney has spelt out very clearly what he would appreciate:
Quote: #1 - Lose the temper. THAT is the ultimate dealbreaker you asked someone about earlier.
I am a reasonable man. You gain nothing by yelling or letting yourself become "overwhelmed". And you risk everything. Make the decision (and develop a plan) to address whatever is bothering you early enough so that you don't blow up, for both our sakes.
If I've done something to add to your stress, tell me and I'll change it. If I haven't, then take it out on whomever did instead of me.
#2 - Be happy. You often tell me that other than with me, you're a happy person. Try it with me. I can always tell when you're "putting on" being happy. I'd like to experience the real thing consistantly. It would make coming home something to look forward to.
I am absolutely aware that you aren't happy with me and that I've made your life much less enjoyable than you expected it to be. You've let me know that you're much happier on the occasions that I've traveled a few days without the family.
I may never be what you wanted your H to be, but surely some part of your life isn't crap. I have no idea what made you think you once wanted to marry me, as the only thing you told me then was that I was tall. Well, I'm as tall now as I was then. Maybe you could at least be glad about that.
You're a terrific homemaker. I can trust you with our money, you are a great cook, you've made a lovely home for us, and you're SuperMom. I appreciate what you do. Often, however, you communicate that those things are a burden to you rather than a joy. I'd rather you do less and stay happy than the reverse. I'm speaking more about an overall attitude than a specific "say or do list".
Seems like Barney is looking for sustainable change. The type that takes a few days to ponder on, and once a habit or bahaviour is altered, it is forever. Take for example the feeling sometimes of being overwhelmed.
Quote: I usually get overwhelmed when I have several time dated deadlines in front of me. An example would be having to leave on a trip, get the kids organized before I leave, making sure everything is done at work before I leave..cause I have to catch a plane at a particular time. Not that it happens often but that is a scenario that happens a few times a year.
Oh yes, I think many of us have been there. And it wasn't till I decided that I will NOT put myself in that situation again, did I start making real, sustainable changes. First, I made sure there were 2 hours of 'doing nothing' every day. Trust me, it was scary - what a waste of my life, what about all the other things/people BUT, after 4 years, today I find myself automatically filtering out obligations, wants, desires, chores that will simply put me in the overwhelmed category. This is such a huge thing, for your own sanity, Nice. What if you were to focus on just this one aspect for a week, and see how things go.
Just my tuppence Slowly (deliberate signature, so I have a constant reminder to slow down )
Nice, I agree with you that promising to never again lose your temper is an unattainable goal. Some people are hotheads, some are not. A lot of it has to do with your FOO, some of it your temperament and some of it is just plain old HABIT. So kick this habit, pronto. But I don't know if I'd ever agree to never do it again. You ARE a human, right?!?! Therefore, prone to less-than-perfectionism..?
Anyway, I'm wondering if the reason that Barney has not appreciated your changes in this regard (other than the fact that he is too p*ssed to notice anything positive in his life--and that's not a slam on you, Barn) is because you are not filling it up with goodness? When you took away the anger, what did you put in its place? False cheerfulness? Rush rush rush? Barely-hanging-on-and-gritting-your-teeth? What?
Sometimes we plan on eliminating a bad behavior while never really thinking about what we'll put in its place.
SO much to do today, that I hadn't planned on posting. Yet, while I was putting on my makeup this thought came that seemed so clear to me. They are mine, for me, and my R, but perhaps will relate to others too.
It helps me so much when I communicated with....
If it is said:
"I want you to flirt with me, fix up, etc." I HEAR (so this type of communication DOESN"T WORK...with me) that I don't flirt, I don't fix up...etc.
But for me, it would help me to hear you if you said:
"I really like it when you flirted with me at dinner and ran you toe up an leg and ???...I'd love it if you would do that more." I am going to jump on that and you!!! I've been caught doing it right...I got positive attention and I'm going to keep it up.
more....
"you never touch it" I HEAR that I NEVER touch it and you are unhappy with what was done...so I am not motivated to do more. The end of touching it is complaining about how I did touch it.
vs.
"I really love when you touch it. The more you do the happier I get and more I want to be with you." Ok! Yes! That motivates me to do more of the same.
I am not talking about this when we are where we are at. I understand. I know that your love tank is totally depleted. I am talking about when stuff is happening. This is just huge for me. I am not asking for you to not be in reality. I just majorly need to be talked to like this in order for me to be motivated to do what you need.
I understand that when a person doesn't feel loved it is very hard to act on these things. So there is no pressure here. And if I am not taking this slowly enough...I am more than happy to back off in this. I heard what slowly said.
I want to erase this. Fear is knocking on more door for saying this. I am afraid of your reaction. I am afraid that you'll be angry for me saying this. This is not an attack against you. This is explaining my makeup to you. It would make like so much better and easier for me.
I feel like apologizing for saying it. Because I want to listen to you.
Point #8 is problematic for me. You seem to be equating my need for you to "Lose the Temper" with losing your patience and feeling overwhelmed. It wouldn't be fair of me to expect that.
I'm talking about the screaming-fit tirades that escalate to blows. Those are the ultimate dealbreakers that I spoke about before. And let me be perfectly clear about this point. I will not live in a M where this occurs.
If these are out of your control, then let's get help. If they are within your control, as the past few months indicate, then the next time you choose to deal with me in that manner is the last day we will be together.
Do you think that you helped or harmed your marriage with that last post?
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
What other outlet do you have for your feelings? Do you pray? journal? have a best friend? an individual counselor? I think you need some regular time in the day or week where you expell some of this overage of pain before dealing with NG. What do you think?
I'm sorry if I have offended anyone. I didn't write my post in anger. In fact, I waited until today to write it so I could think about it overnight.
I've chosen to make physical violence a boundary in my M. I should have done so a long time ago.
I'm encouraged by NG's improvement in this area. It's been several months since the last time it occurred. This improvement has made me believe that it can be controlled.
This "coping mechanism" caused a major shut-down in our M from the first time it occurred and continued with each episode. Whether this makes sense to anyone else or not, I can't open myself up again with the looming possibility that it could happen again on any given day.
So, again, forgive me for offending you. I simply stated my feelings in a true and honest manner, and I offered to seek help together if needed.
So much discussion, but has there really been enough time to sit with these thoughts, feel through them?
And from what I can see, Nice is lucky, lucky, as Barney has spelt out very clearly what he would appreciate: 
BUT, after 4 years, today I find myself automatically filtering out obligations, wants, desires, chores that will simply put me in the overwhelmed category. This is such a huge thing, for your own sanity, Nice. What if you were to focus on just this one aspect for a week, and see how things go. 
Slowly (deliberate signature, so I have a constant reminder to slow down