What happens now?

[SherryL]

Hang in there J.

You have done so well.
Your H is confused and he is at least sharing that with you. Step back and give him space and time.
As you know, I did not do that, but my sitch is different.
So it easy to say but a whole lot harder to actually do.

Seriously think about what you want.
Sherry

[ValerieA]

Thank you, Sherry and Sage. I know it's good that H is sharing his thoughts with me. I even thanked him and told him how much I appreciate him opening up and talking to me.

About backing up and giving him space, I have been doing this and I want to give him his space, but like I said in the previous post, I feel like I'm getting mixed signals from H. I feel like he wants out, so I have been leaving him alone and still being friendly when he's around or we talk. Then I feel like he wants to be close to me, but I'm not sure if I should approach him. And how? He can be content one moment and the next moment he has a look of misery or uncertainty on his face. I thought I'm supposed to get H to pursue me, but at times I feel like I have to pursue him, but if I do, what if it backfires? What if that's not what H wants? I just don't know! My head is so scrambled right now. I don't even know if any of what I'm saying makes any sense at all. I'm so sorry. I'm just a total mess now, and I don't know what to do. I feel like H wants something from me but then I feel like he doesn't.

I can hear H pulling up now, I will post about last night later.

[NYsurvivor]

I feel like I'm getting mixed signals from H.

If you're getting mixed signals, the rule of thumb is to look at the actions, not the words.

I feel like he wants... Then I feel like he wants...

You're letting your actions be based on your feelings. That's going to always flip flop and make you act topsy turvy, because that's how feelings go.

He can be content one moment and the next moment he has a look of misery or uncertainty on his face.

Just wondering what a blind LBS would do if they couldn't see their WAS's "looks"? Do you think they'd not be able to ever reconcile?

I'm wincing right now. Tell me what I'm thinking. Ha! You're wrong. Stop trying to analyze looks on faces. Looking content one moment and not the next is not the sort of stuff that will effectively lead you. You're gong to fall into the trap and react based on faulty premises. When you react instead of act, you shortchange viable solutions simply because you're judging the results based on the wrong information.

I thought I'm supposed to get H to pursue me, but at times I feel like I have to pursue him, but if I do, what if it backfires? What if that's not what H wants?

Others have paved the way, and have found time and again that pursuing types of behaviors, even though they feel right, work against the desired goal. If you DB, and give it enough of a reasonable time, you might see little positive steps. If you don't see results after giving enough time (Michele says a couple of weeks, longer if the WAS doesn't live with you, so temper the time allowed, as these couldn't be strict time lines), then stop and rethink your strategy, based on what's been happening (not on what kind of face H has on today or what you think he may be thinking) and do something different accordingly.

I'm just a total mess now, and I don't know what to do.

that may be due to not following a solid plan purposefully, and because of permitting your feelings to dictate your actions. Speaking of which...

I feel like H wants something from me but then I feel like he doesn't.

Again, as I wrote earlier... these are feelings and feelings flop all over the place...

[ValerieA]

Thanks again, NY. I am listening and appreciate everyone's insight and support, but as Sherry said, it is easy to say but a lot harder to actually do. I am trying my hardest to push aside all these "feelings". I took a massive blow yesterday. I've spent the last 12 years with the love of my life, then only to find out that he never wanted this life.

I made a lot of choices in our life together that I felt were right, but apparently they were only right for me. We were together for 2 1/2 years when I became pregnant with our 1st S. It wasn't the best thing for us - we were only 20 years old then. H said he wasn't ready to be a father and was pushing for an abortion. I did respect his thoughts and feelings, but I couldn't bring myself to do that. I had my doubts, too, as far as being a mother at 20, but I just could not do it. Giving it up for adoption was not an option for either one of us. Needless to say, we went through a lot of heartache with this decision and split up. I didn't want to raise my baby alone, but knowing how H felt, I was preparing to do it. . . . .2 weeks later, H showed up at my house (I was still living at home with my parents) and had a convo with my stepdad telling him that he was going to do the right thing. H was going to be there for me and this baby. After talking to them, we talked and got back together.

When our 1st S was about 1 1/2 years old, we were in Tahoe for a night with a mutual friend. We gambled, had fun, then it was time to go. While leaving, we were passing a bunch of those open-all-night wedding chapels. Our friend was pushing for us to get married. I don't think either one of us felt pressured by this. It just seemed like the right thing to do. I wanted it, and I think H wanted it, too. So we got married. Not exactly the wedding of my dreams, but I was marrying my soulmate, and I really think H felt the same way.

About 2 years later, H actually was the one to bring up having another child. He wanted to give our S a sibling. I wanted that, too, so then our 2nd S came along. I never saw H so happy before when he was born. He was the very proud papa.

4 years later, we begin to talk about possibly having one more child. I really wanted a little girl, so we decide to try. Then H's doctor gives him some very bad news, so we stop trying and decide to wait until we are both in much better physical health, but it was too late - I was pregnant with our 3rd S. H wasn't furious, but I knew he wasn't happy at all. I think if I left it solely up to him, he would have chosen an abortion. We both knew I wasn't going to be willing to do that. I decided this would be our last child, so after the baby was born, I had my tubes tied. I never noticed it then, but when I've gone through pictures of the baby's birth, there was not one photo where H was or appeared to be happy. Not even a smile.

So in October when the baby was about a month old, this is when the A began. . . . .and I discover OW at the end of January.

I guess the only right decision I made was in having our 2nd son since that was H's only definite decision. I know that probably sounds bad, but I don't mean it that way. As much as it hurt and as hard as it was to say, I apologized to H for having made all the wrong decisions for him. I told him that I was so sorry for putting so much responsibility on him. I told him this is what I always wanted ever since I was a little girl - to be married, have a family, a house, and to be happy and in love. I am so sorry for doing this to him. For not respecting his feelings and wishes nearly as much as I should have. I guess I was being selfish, but back then I never saw it this way. Who does?

Thanks for listening. I have more to say, but I will do it later. I need to cry before H gets back from the gym.

[NYsurvivor]

No wonder you feel like crying, you've got a very sad story. So do I, but maybe not as sad as yours.

You have no idea how much of a soul mate my wife was to me. OMG! Long story short: I surprised her one night by asking her to marry me. She was delighted and gleefully leaped into my lap! The next day, there was a card in the mail from her she had mailed me before I proposed. In it she wrote, "will you marry me?" OMG!!! When she turned 40, I arranged a surprise birthday party for her at the Tribecca Grill. The trade centers had just been bombed a month earlier, and it looked like the party would have to be called off, but they re-opened the area. She was feeling that all her friends had forsaken her, busy with their own lives, but they were all there that night. She told me it was the nicest thing anyone had ever done for her. It cost me one thousand dollars to do that, but I did it because I loved her so. Yet, she left me to turn 50 all by my lonesome - for someone who never did a g*d damn thing for her. I took care of her, paid her medical bills, put a roof over her head, fed her... she never made more than a few thousand dollars in her business, but I didn't marry her for money and her craft was her passion so i couldn't ask her to give it up... I was making money enough to support us. Now, she's with a man who doesn't take care of her needs that way. She has to pay her own bills... and I think sooner or later she'll understand that the NE (Non Entity) doesn't really love her and care for her... he won't even commit to her, fer cryin' out loud... yeah, so much for being the loves of their lives...

Well, anyway, harboring on all this doesn't bring the wife back, you know? We have to push all this to the side and suck it up and take it upon ourselves to do all the work. That's the way it is. That's the way it works. We have to talk to them through big smiles plastered on our faces and not let any of this heart ache show, because they gave up the relationship first. We're the only ones hanging on to it, you know? So, since it's important to only us, then it's only us to whom all the effort is upon to turn it around.

[sage]

I thought I'm supposed to get H to pursue me, but at times I feel like I have to pursue him, but if I do, what if it backfires? What if that's not what H wants?

Others have paved the way, and have found time and again that pursuing types of behaviors, even though they feel right, work against the desired goal. If you DB, and give it enough of a reasonable time, you might see little positive steps. If you don't see results after giving enough time (Michele says a couple of weeks, longer if the WAS doesn't live with you, so temper the time allowed, as these couldn't be strict time lines), then stop and rethink your strategy, based on what's been happening (not on what kind of face H has on today or what you think he may be thinking) and do something different accordingly.

I agree that pursuit is not desired or helpful in most cases but I would like to add this...in my sitch, because I think h had felt that I had lost interest in him and/or just, in general, wasn't paying enough attention or giving enough affection, turning up the warmth and enthusiasm and openness from my end really, really helped to move things forward. The way I distinguish this from "pursuit" was that I never (or hardly ever ) mentioned the "future" or ran far ahead of h in terms of enthusiasm for our MARRIAGE. In other words, I made overtures in regards to "I'm going to see this movie, do you want to come" as opposed to "let's live together forever" . Other salient points would be that I backed off quickly if h gave me the indication that I was getting too close, I only made 50% of the invites that I really wanted to and I always (always) made it clear that I was planning on doing something ANYWAY with or without him and I stuck to that in the cases when he said no.

I also didn't jump into this from the getgo. I kept a very low, non-pursuing profile for a while.

Of course, my sitch very specifically seemed to warrant this type of action.

I would say to the OP that her sitch does remind me of mine...so perhaps that's why I feel strongly about bringing this up.

Sage

[ValerieA]

I have been sucking it all up - my feelings, my thoughts, everything. I guess part of the problem is when I go into the bedroom or another part of the house to get something, I find H crying. Then when he sees me, he keeps saying, "I'm sorry. I'm so sorry." I tell him, "I know. I know you are. We'll be ok." I'm trying to comfort him, but I'm not sure if that's the right thing to say.

I know I'm not supposed to think about how he may or may not be feeling or thinking, but I have a sense that H feels he deserves to be told to get out. I seriously think he wants me to tell him to leave or that I hate him for what he's done, so get out. In fact, if I remember correctly, in a past R talk, H said, "I wish you would tell me to get the f**k out. That's what I deserve." I sense that H really wants what he feels he deserves, and he wants me to be the one to give it to him. I think he wants out, but he doesn't want to be the one who chooses for him to leave. Does this make any sense? I think he wants to go, but maybe he's afraid of taking that big step. I know, I'm repeating myself. Sorry.

I can be acting as if, and it doesn't seem to be helping. I've been GAL and detaching a bit, H did notice and decided to stay. Even when he's home, I have gone out with some friends while he stayed with the kids, and this didn't seem to help. I think he felt I was moving on without him too fast, so I haven't gone out in a couple of weeks. Maybe I need to go back to doing things without him because when I stopped this, all his uncertainties about being here came around again. I don't know. Lately I have been feeling like I should just tell him to go. That's not what I really want, but maybe that's what needs to happen.

[SherryL]

Hey J,

All your thoughts mirror mine lately. I even asked my H, do you just want me to tell you to go, do you want me to make the decision for you????? He said no, but I get the feeling he wants me to make the decision so he doesn't have to.

I feel like my GAL gave H too much freedom to continue and still be comfortable at home (no one knowing, no financial problems and whatever the heck he gets from me emotionally).

You know I took the plunge and it is scary. So don't do it unless you are ready. I feel like I will be okay but being a single mom was never part of my plan or being alone. But I also had other things to consider which you know by reading my thread. I know if my H leaves it will be really hard in a lot of ways. My H has still not made a decision. I am trying to figure out how to handle it.

Hang in there, you have so many positives (just the fact that he has wanted to work on the M is wonderful). I know he keeps going back and forth. Maybe he just needs more time and DBing from you.

Sherry

[NYsurvivor]

I think he wants out, but he doesn't want to be the one who chooses for him to leave. Does this make any sense? I think he wants to go, but maybe he's afraid of taking that big step.

He has to make his own decision, doesn't he?

I can be acting as if, and it doesn't seem to be helping.

Maybe things are working themselves out favorably but they don't appear so right now... things aren't always as they appear. Maybe you haven't "acted as if" enough yet and the changes are around the corner. Don't give up just yet... don't give up 5 minutes before you get results. Patience. He's sitting there crying, feeling guilty. What's going through his mind exactly may or may not be what you feel it is. Even if it is, he could change his mind. Either way, it's something he has to deal with himself.

I've been GAL and detaching a bit, H did notice and decided to stay. Even when he's home, I have gone out with some friends while he stayed with the kids, and this didn't seem to help.

Again, appearances can be deceiving.

I think he felt I was moving on without him too fast, so I haven't gone out in a couple of weeks.

Don't base what you do on what you think he's feeling or thinking. If you do that, you're going to circumvent the overall plan by changing it to suit whatever mood he's in at that moment. People are complex. Don't try to read them. When you change plans based on presumptions, you are REACTING instead of ACTING. Stick with the overall plan. It's always darkest before dawn, right? If you change strategies then you're never giving anything enough time to be effective. Things take a long time, longer than you care for. Impatience must the number one reason people give up prematurely.

Go back to what you were doing when he was making steps back toward you. Remember? "It's like you're a different person!" he'd cry. He didn't want to lose you and he felt you slipping away. What happened after that? he got comfortable again, got reassured and started acting it. Now you're pulling away again and he's crying. I mentioned this last time: Pull farther away this time.

Lately I have been feeling like I should just tell him to go. That's not what I really want, but maybe that's what needs to happen.

You know you don't really want to deliver an ultimatum, it's too chancy. It may be what does the trick, but then again, maybe not. Don't do things based on how you FEEL, either. Do things based on a solid thought out plan. That's why we're here.

Pull away further, go darker by not telling him what you're doing, what you're up to, except for a few nondescript crumbs where he still doesn't get a clear picture of what you're doing. Like last time, he'll probably close in that gap and rethink everything again, and that's almost like having him decide, without having the alternative being that he must go.

[ValerieA]

... I even asked my H, do you just want me to tell you to go, do you want me to make the decision for you????? He said no, but I get the feeling he wants me to make the decision so he doesn't have to.

Yes. This is exactly what I mean.

How do I pull away further? We've had R talks every day since he got back. H initiated each one. How can I pull away when H is constantly pulling me back with R talks? Yes, he's sharing, and I want that. Yes, he's still here, and I want that. But I don't know how many more of these R talks I can take! They are killing me! H started another one about an hour ago. Same thing - he doesn't know what he wants. He's not sure of anything. He wants to do the right thing. I don't know what to say to him anymore! I finally just said to him, "I feel like you want me to tell you what to do. I think you want me to make your decision for you. I can't do that, H. You have to make your own choices. I cannot and will not make them for you." All he said was, "I just don't know what I want." I walked away. Maybe it was wrong, but I just didn't have any more to say or do.

If anything, at least we have been able to comment on things and laugh about them together. At least we still have that laughter and occasional intimacy. Maybe this could be why he's still here. I have been trying to initiate more of this, but when he's feeling down (which is just about everyday), it's kinda difficult, you know?

Thank you, everyone, for being here, listening, and giving me your support. Your help means so much more to me than you know. I've been following everyone's sitch. I wish I could be of more help, but I don't feel like that's possible right now. Again, thank you so much.