This is helpful, and I'm listening, even if I'm slow to grasp some of this.
Quote: Gosh, maybe, but I can't think what off the top of my head. All I can tell you, to try to get an inkling of what W is going through, is to imagine what it would be like if you were gay. It may be hard for you to imagine being attracted to men, but suppose you could wrap your brain around that. Then what? What could you imagine your life being like (even without the complication of a current R)? What would daily life be like if you dated or lived with a man?
But so far, and I hope this continues, she's agreeing not to date or live with anybody except me. I guess I could try to imagine if I were not sexually interested in my wife, if I had an aversion to having sex with her, and were drawn to sex with men. Honestly, after typing that in, I just started laughing, because I can't imagine not being drawn to my wife, and I can't imagine being sexually attracted to men. I've had gay friends, and I've been in gay bars, but...it's a lot easier to imagine having an aversion to sex with my wife and strong attraction to other women.
And a lot of what she's going through is dealing with the fact that she *is* married to me, *not* sexually attracted to me, and dealing with my attraction to her. She's wrestling with her identity and the meaning of our marriage. But so far, not with dating or living with other women.
Quote: Maybe she wishes that you would listen like a woman. Maybe she loves you because you do.
I think maybe the latter - I usually do listen well. We like to hold each other and talk, and we've been doing an awful lot of that lately. It's been intense.
Quote: Maybe she'd like it better if you were smoother and softer.
I'm sure that part is true. At times I've been shaving twice a day, trying to be smooth for her, and I'm not at all hirsute. When I started running, lost a lot of weight, and firmed up, she complained that I have become less huggable. Sigh. I survive life a lot better when I'm in shape.
Quote: I don't know. You can't be a woman, but you can be willing to be more like a woman in ways that W would appreciate. If that's the case, then find a non-pressuring way to let her know that. Start by focusing on the non-sex aspects.
I'm going to have to chew on this for a while. In some ways, I'm more female than my wife - more emotional, more moody, more verbal, a better listener. But when it comes to smooth, soft, and huggable, I don't seem to be that. When I ask her what she longs for in a woman, she talks about physical things - breasts, genitals like her own, being able to touch someone else and feel what it feels like by touching her own body...and that's not stuff I know how to do for her.
Quote: I'm hoping that y'all are able to maintain a sense of humor throughout. "Oh honey, that's okay. I'll just get a sex change and everything will be fine. Then we can go to the women's music festivals together and everything."
Hey, humor is one thing we do reasonably well at. We *have* been laughing about this.
Quote: BTW, does W know about your affairs? And why is nobody willing to stay together for the kids?
She does - but these affairs were in 1993 and 1994, so it's not quite current history. And they were brief (a one-time affair and a 3-time affair).
If we decided to withdraw from the marriage emotionally, we would have to decide whether to still stay together for the kids. But since we're staying together for us, we're still together for the kids. Perhaps I wasn't clear about that.
Quote: Honestly, after typing that in, I just started laughing
LOL. That's the point. It's so foreign that your brain can't even get there.
Quote: And a lot of what she's going through is dealing with the fact that she *is* married to me, *not* sexually attracted to me, and dealing with my attraction to her. She's wrestling with her identity and the meaning of our marriage. But so far, not with dating or living with other women.
I hear you, but what I'm getting at is that this is not just one little changed detail that means a little adjustment in the current context. This is a tectonic revelation that shifts the earth on its axis. No telling where it will land, but EVERYTHING will be called into question, whether you like it or not, and whether she likes it or not.
Quote: When I ask her what she longs for in a woman, she talks about physical things
Sigh. Even if you do all you can, you can't do that.
Thanks for clarifying your comment about the kids.
Do you have a sufficient support system in place for YOU? Friends, therapist?
A brief search of the net finds a support group for men married to lesbian or bisexual women on Yahoo. They refer to your situation as a Mixed orientation marriage. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MMTL/ I think there are a lot of other sites both on lesbian sites and something called straightspouses.
I know my mother joined a support group when I was 12 called Spatula. I asked her why that name and she said because parents flip out when they find out their kid's are gay. Unlike our very, very wise friend, StubbornDyke, I am bisexual and so cannot imagine ( I have tried) having feelings exclusively for one sex. So, it is very hard for me to imagine what your wife may be going through, and like StubbornDyke, I always knew my orientation. I was trying to imagine just waking up sometime in mid life with an understanding that I was a lesbian when I had always thought of myself as straight. I hear a lot of love in your writing. Lots of concern for her feelings and her struggles. Some relationships...The Course In Miracles would call them holy relationships, transend the physical. Many issues for you two on the road ahead. All that love is going to help. desdamona
Arguing with reality is like trying to teach a cat to bark—hopeless. (Byron Katie)
That is a *very* useful group, I've been in it for a week now, and it's been the best source of wisdom that I've found so far.
Quote: I think there are a lot of other sites both on lesbian sites and something called straightspouses.
My wife found a useful mailing list for lesbians married to straight men.
Quote: Unlike our very, very wise friend, StubbornDyke, I am bisexual and so cannot imagine (I have tried) having feelings exclusively for one sex.
She does have a lot of wisdom. I'm afraid I'm as straight as they come. I once trained in massage (got about half way through the training), and I'm perfectly comfortable with men touching me, hugging men, being naked together with men, etc., but there's nothing sexual about it. Now women ... are a different story. When StubbornDyke asked me to imagine dating or living with a man, I guess I could relate to the bit about being an oddball, I just can't understand why anybody would be interested in having sex with a guy. That's one of the things my wife and I seem to have in common.
Quote: I hear a lot of love in your writing. Lots of concern for her feelings and her struggles. Some relationships...The Course In Miracles would call them holy relationships, transend the physical.
She also has a lot of caring and concern for me.
I just wish I weren't always feeling like I'm going to explode. Sexlessness leaves me moody and pensive. But if the rest of our relationship is strong - our emotional closeness, our cuddling, the pragmatics of our family, our support for each other and faithfulness to each other - we can survive a big knock in one area of our relationship.
I seriously considered taking SSRIs to deaden my sex drive. But I'm not ready for that ... it feels like a frontal lobotomy. Hmmm...and it would be frontal, wouldn't it?
She hasn't ever had a relationship with a woman. She's not been able to get sexually aroused in any context, but when she started allowing herself to fantasize about women, this changed. She has since started reinterpreting her life events in this light.
Jon, I don't know...I've never been tempted to go to the other side, but I'm not sure I would proclaim myself lesbian simply because I found women sexually stimulating.
I find naked women MUCH more stimulating than men..and my fantasies always contain another woman in some capacity...but I am not lesbian. I would never want a relationship with a woman, not even a purely sexual one. I am hetero all the way, but women play a big part in my fantasy sex life.
I'm not trying to suggest that your wife is wrong about herself, just saying that sexual fantasy material does not make you anything, it's just what arouses you. I like all the things your wife said, but I don't have any urge to actually follow through with it.
From a more religious point of view, I believe that you actually have grounds for divorce. Now if you were staying for the children, I could understand this (i am doing so). But why would you actually want to continue a relationship with someone that will probably never find you attractive? I just saw this in the paper over the weekend in an advice column. A man and woman are "Deeply" in love, were planning on getting married, but yet the man admitted that the women has no interest in sex and is not attreacted to him physically. He asked if they should get counselling. The advisor responded with "You should get counselling. Why would a man KNOWINGLY want to marry a woman that is not physically attracted to him".
So I ask the question, if it is not for the kids, why do you WANT to spend the rest of your life with someone that admits will never be attracted to you?
