I think I owe you an apology for an assumption on my part...
I was assuming the reason he is writing her is not to keep in touch, but to make an effort for a concrete ending?
If this is not the case, sorry I created any confusion.
But I will stand on my own words that jealousy in any shape or form isn't a healthy response to dealing with fears. He's either going to be faithful or he isn't, and no display from you is going to change things.
I do agree that 3 is a crowd and that there needs to be some understanding between you on what types of people are allowed to be friends to BOTH of you.
On the other side of the coin, acting AS IF you are going to be okay with whatever he decides to do can only help if he's just digging his heels in to show you that you aren't the boss of him.
Again, I'm sorry for the ASSumption...
Hugs,
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
I can ASSume with the best of 'em, Bets, and I'll take a crack at what you've said. I'm ASSuming, from what I know of S., that his letter will be warm and sweet and heartfelt, and that he will say he misses talking to her, and probably NOT end the communication, and since he is saying he wants to do it because it's "the way to treat a friend," that he is in actuality responding to a postcard from her, that a communication from him will just re-open the lines of communication.
Here's more ASSumptions: He will be vague, if he says anything at all, about being in a R, and if he tells her we are back together, he could very likely say that things are "a mess," terminology he's used before. So, she is left thinking
1. He misses me 2. His R is on the rocks 3. I can be understanding and connect with him 4. Our 4x/week-plus communication can resume.
She will make a tentative phone call, they will talk for three hours in the middle of the night, and he will lament having lost this most special of "friendships."
I've been back and forth on these issues with H2H all day, and I wrote to her:
I do think it’s appropriate for him to think about what his intentions ARE before he sends out a letter, which knowing him will be really tender and heartfelt and probably open up ALL kinds of communications lines between them. Remember, SHE is the one who understands him, and I don’t. They really “connect,” as he puts it, and we don’t. So this is really dangerous waters, especially when we are so fragile. I need also to ask him to put off the letter until we are on more solid ground.
Which also answers the question, in a way, "What's she got that I don't got?"
Alrighty then, I'm glad I got my confusion out of the way.
Sorry to sound like some sort of wacko person, but I would absolutely insist on this being a boundary now that you've given more juicy information.
EWWWWW, YUCK, BLAH. (Barfy emoticon, where are you?)
I hear you loud and clear. I'll be anxiously awaiting to hear how you and S deal with this issue. Something tells me you're going to have a wild story to tell!
If he really perceives her this way, Jennifer (and I am going to hope like hell that this is not his perception) then you have nothing to lose by asking him if he's in or out...
But by all means, I think doing something along those lines is best done with a qualified C leading the way. I tend to be a little like Denver's answer to Yosemite Sam when holding a boundary that is very, very important to me. (And I don't think you are being unreasonable for wanting her to be an exit into the mutual lives of S and Jennifer for here on out. Three IS a crowd.)
Hugs and more apologies!
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
p.s. I had a pretty tough lesson with jealousy and insecurity in my R before my marriage (with said guy I mentioned earlier). In my case, the adage of "don't date anyone better looking than you are" was a pretty good one for me LOL.
My guy was (and still is, actually) a really handsome man. So much so, that whenever we went out, women went out of their way to get him to notice them. This happened on our first date! He helped me deal with this by reacting in a very kind fashion (he is the quintessential Virginia gentleman) by telling them, "I'm flattered. But as you can see, I'm with a lovely woman with whom I am in love with. I'd appreciate it if you didn't approach me again." (Of course our first date he didn't say the love thing.)
I was really impressed that he would treat them with respect and in the same sentence, get them to see how their actions might be perceived by me.
But it REALLY bugged me when I wasn't with him--wondering if he was fending off their advances or not. I would sort of get myself into a tailspin and he would either reassure me that he had chosen me, or I would do or say something really stupid that sounded even more idiotic when I verbalized my insecurities.
I slowly began to realize that he was getting sick and tired of reassuring me. (But secretly I still wonder why women act this way? It was awful.)
This doesn't mean we should go out of our way to find unappealing men! A little easier to figure out why those insecurities are present.
You aren't alone!
Bets
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
The thing that really alarms me about this is that when we broke up in June, we had almost this exact same conversation. I had reached a fever-pitch level of frustration over his stonewalling, denials that she was more than a friend, and complete secrecy over their correspondence (which I accessed through snooping). He refused to talk to me about it, saying that he was trying to focus on OUR rela and nothing had anything to do with her. Basically, protecting HER against the ravages of ME.
[Newbies to my thread will not know that he went away to see her for three weeks in 2003 (including a secret week in Paris, MY CITY, which he had refused to go to with me), all the while saying he was visiting friends in Switzerland, among them Swiss Miss, who was an old friend (he has many women friends, and why would a woman in Switzerland arouse my suspicion?). He even went so far as to show me the pictures of their trip, continually feigning innocence until it hit me like a ton of bricks, I asked, and he spilled the beans. Boy, did I feel stupid, all the while wishing him a merry trip.]
So when he came back to me, he professed he wanted to face his infidelity, that I was right all along, that there was no way that he could have been focused on our R when he had someone waiting in the wings, etc etc etc. As time went on, he got more annoyed on the rare occasions I brought her up, sighing and lamenting that he would NEVER live it down, that I would never forget it (sounds familiar to many of you, I imagine). So this last time, after he receives the postcard, HIDES IT, doesn't tell me about it, and plans (clearly with no thought to letting me know) to write her a letter, which is SO intensely personal (why not an e-mail?) then freaks out and yells at me - you guessed it - that he's been trying to focus on OUR rela and nothing had anything to do with her. Sound familiar? Just go back and look at my threads from May and June... it's all there.
So I am alarmed because he has done a 360 on this issue, it seems to me. Now, he may VERY WELL write her a Dear John letter. But in light of the recent fragility of our R, and that he has been feeling guilty about her, and that he has chosen not to include me in this process, I ain't bettin' on it.
Yes, Betsey, he feels a real connection with her. They used to talk HOURS on the phone, 3-4 times a week. Long e-mails, and her sending letters weekly. Yes, we DO need a BARF icon. Let me try:
Has S ever agreed with you that a friendship with Swiss Miss might be inappropriate? As I recall, that's still a gulf between you left unresolved. If you do have counseling, which I hope would focus on the two of you, perhaps that question can be addressed, especially if it identifies underlying vulnerabilities in each of--perhaps his fear of being engulfed and yours of being abandoned.
In any case, it's a potent issue definitely best handled with a competent T.
S does seem to be committed to you, Jen, and don't forget that. HE came back to have the giggle session with you, and HE was worried you had changed your ticket.
gosh, you've got a lot going on...and I can relate to so much of what you're writing (based on past experience and when I'm in my "future fears" mode...)
Quote: So this last time, after he receives the postcard, HIDES IT, doesn't tell me about it, and plans (clearly with no thought to letting me know) to write her a letter, which is SO intensely personal (why not an e-mail?) then freaks out and yells at me - you guessed it - that he's been trying to focus on OUR rela and nothing had anything to do with her. Sound familiar? Just go back and look at my threads from May and June... it's all there.
But...just to clarify ... he DID tell you about the postcard, right? It's not like you snooped and found it? While I know you're reacting to the fact that it was a delayed response from him AND that you're hearing some of the "same old, same old" from him in regards to the friendship...if he did tell you about the postcard on his own, well, I'm going to give him a brownie point for that...yah, maybe it's a delayed point, or one that's still wrapped up in his crapola, but, he gets a nod nontheless. (And you get a nod and more!)
Quote: Let me try:
***
I like it, so I'm repeating it. ***
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
GBO, thanks. No, he has never come that far around to agree that a friendship is inappropriate. He has always held out hope that somehow she could be integrated one day, as in, one day in the rosy future, she can come and stay with us in New York and chuck our baby under the chin. You're right - he is committed to making the R work, even as he has doubts (expressed to me in our calmer conversation of yesterday, before the papers flew) about when to concede that things aren't working and when to keep plugging on. WHICH is why it is SO dangerous for him to be contacting her right now.
Sage, nice to hear from you! No, he didn't offer up the information, I had to ask. Then he "volunteered" that there had been a postcard from her when we got back two and a half weeks ago, and that he felt he had to send her a letter before we left, which is a week from today. He had no intention of telling me before he sent the letter, if ever.
Tonight I go to his place for trip planning. He was supposed to have contacted a therapist today, one he saw years ago and liked, but I have received no call about a time, and so I think he didn't do it. I don't know why else he hasn't called, because the backup plan in order for us to see a T BEFORE we go was: I was getting a recommendation from my T as a backup, and I've had those numbers at the ready all day, waiting to see if I needed to use them (i.e., if he wasn't able to secure us an appointment).
So I'm left in a quandary - if he didn't call for an appointment (unless he just booked us without calling to ask if I was available, which would really surprise me given his methodical scheduling brain), time is running out, and he should have let me know ASAP so I could call one of the other Ts (this was all his idea, BTW), and now it's after 5 on Tuesday. Of course, if I say ONE WORD about it, he will freak out and say nothing he does is right, and if I let it go? No therapist.
I'm dying to know if S did get in touch with the T.
Like you, I'd follow the Shirley Glass line of no contact/friendship with Swiss Miss. There has been so much betrayal of you in that "friendship" that I can't see how it's possible for Swiss Miss to ever be a part of your lives. Of course, my perspective is 100% influenced by my thinking about OW in my sitch and my H going on about a friendship with OW in the future.
My big challenge has been putting up a boundary without my H feeling controlled. The only thing that has worked so far has been to emphasize that *I* can't bear the pain of H being in contact with OW. That way the whole talk becomes about what I can live with as opposed to telling H what he should or shouldn't do.
While your thinking about Swiss Miss sounds spot on, I don't think it will help for S to hear it from you (probably not for the first time). Let's hope that you get to see someone together before your trip. By the way, when do you leave?
Wendy
Me: 51 H: 52 T: 23 yrs M: 19 yrs S18, D16, S14 (special needs) PA: 2003/2004 Piecing: 2004 on Suspect H had EA: 8/2012-12/2012
Hi Jennifer, I read the whole thing, what a drama ! I’m so glad you were able to inquire about his paper cuts. They could have really added up!
It is unclear to me if she is actively pursuing him and disrespecting your relationship if she doesn’t know you are back together. I also think you can feed your jealous monster too much and see her grow. Your most intense fears may need to be addressed in journaling or somewhere away from him right now.
“They really “connect,” as he puts it, and we don’t. So this is really dangerous waters, especially when we are so fragile. I need also to ask him to put off the letter until we are on more solid ground.”
I don’t see you (as a couple) as all that fragile, if you can giggle with each other and hug and makeup after what used to be dramatic and awful-looking fight. Are you really that fragile? Can you act as if you aren’t (and still make sure your boundaries are kept, whatever you decide they are). I also hate that "waiting in the wings thing" that seems tohappen so often.
Betsey 
*** 