Quote: "We would like to see you less control over your own horniness".
That's just it, Dave. I don't have any horiness for me OR him to control. It's not like it's in there and I'm withholding it on purpose. If it was in there, he could have every last drop of it.
Can you even fathom a life where Mr. Peter just doesn't work, and have to be in the position of trying to figure out how to make it work without drugs, or any other enhancements?
This isn't about food or shopping... those were two things I came up with. Put something else in there.
Try to fathom this. What it's like to do something with your spouse, on a consistent basis, that you have no physical urge, want or need to do... and in fact, you are the one to bring it up, and do it with enthusiasm? At least three times a week?
I can absolutely relate. Maybe not two or three times a week, but I can relate. This is exactly the kind of changes I've made in myself to try to communicate in W's LL.
You mentioned shopping. I HATE shopping, and in the past, I made that painfully obvious. Now, I shop. I still can't really say that I like it, but I've managed to get to a place where I realize that W loves it and I enjoy the time spent with her doing things that she likes to do. We went shopping at the mall twice last weekend. Between W and the three D's, they spent a bundle. Penney's was giving away $10 gift cards for every $50 you spent. The cards are valid only between Jan 18th and 29th. I saw three or four of them on the china cabinet last night and asked W if she would like to go shopping sometime over the weekend (I have Friday off this week). So even though I can think of literally hundreds of things I would rather do, I’ve been shopping twice in the past five days and have already volunteered for another trip to the mall.
W loves gardening. I would prefer Astroturf – no dirt, no mud, no mowing, no bother. I trim shrubbery. I plant flowers. I spray for bagworms. I dust for fungus. I buy ladybugs. I till. I mulch. I do it, not because I like it, but because W likes it and because I enjoy spending the time talking with her while we work together in the yard, the garden, and the flower beds.
W loves decorating. You could have Scotty beam you into my house from orbit around Ceti Alpha 3 and you would instantly know what season it was here. We decorate for New Year’s, we decorate for Valentine’s Day, we decorate for St. Patrick’s Day,… I wouldn’t be surprised if we decorated for Flag day. I think it’s silly. It’s a lot of junk to store. It’s a lot of work and bother to keep changing the stuff out. But guess what? I do it. And I smile. I even pointed out a New Year’s tablecloth in WalMart since ours is on its last legs. I enjoy making W happy.
Corri wrote: Try to fathom this. What it's like to do something with your spouse, on a consistent basis, that you have no physical urge, want or need to do... and in fact, you are the one to bring it up, and do it with enthusiasm? At least three times a week? ----------------
I know exactly what you mean. This was a HUGE issue for me in my M.
I was expected to do precisely this re:my W's LL. I couldn't do it without her making some adjustments in mine. That's why we're where we are today.
If your H isn't speaking your LL, he can't truly expect you to speak his. The success of the NOPs is that they learned to do just that, IMO.
BUT, even if he's unwilling to speak your LL, he's going to feel controlled by you in his. He has the LL thing plus the physical need adding to it. It's the nature of the beast, or as many W would say, "why M are pigs".
Quote: If you’re feeling horny but your spouse is in bed with the flu, you try not to think about it, you mb, …, you do something – but you don’t have sex. Even though YOU are the one modifying your behavior, it’s the status of the spouse that’s behind the modification.
Just out of curiosity, in what part of your life do you NOT have to modify your behavior because of someone or something else?
I think it is very, very wonderful that you do these things for your wife. And I understand perfectly well your agony and frustration that you do these things -- things you'd not necessarily chose to do yourself -- for her, because you love her... and then she looks at you and says, "sorry, I just can't help you," and doesn't even try...
I'm beginning to think that there is a deeper level of intimacy available in marriage, but it takes a lot of work on BOTH PARTNER's parts to get there. If you can achieve that connection, the LD/HD is not the issue it is now. I've only got an inkling how to get there, but my recent experience (glimpses anyway), as well as what NOP's have posted seem to indicate that once you get there the differences between HD and LD become superfluous. Part of it, I think, is baring and sharing your souls to one another, part is letting go of the quest for physical nirvana and instead pursuing a whole connection. Anyway, it sure gives me hope. I suspect HP is also starting to see glimpses of this too.
Quote: Just out of curiosity, in what part of your life do you NOT have to modify your behavior because of someone or something else?
Probably none. But that wasn’t the point. The point was that the HD partner feels that they don’t have control over their own SL. In fact, nobody does since it takes two to tango. But the problem with control lies in the perceived inequity.
From the HD perspective, it certainly seems like the LD partner can have sex any time they want. Initiate, ask, hint, cast a knowing look in our direction – we’re there. But the same is not true for the HD partner. The HD partner can have sex, not whenever they want it, but only under the conditions I outlined before. Sure, some of the control may be self-control, but by and large, the HD partner feels that sex is out of their control.
So the perception is that the LD has complete control over their SL. The LD can have sex any time they want – the HD is a sure thing. The LD doesn’t have to have sex any time they don’t want to – as I said, it takes two to tango. The HD sees their SL as being dependent upon the whim of the LD. As before, I know that this is over-simplifying, but let me run a couple of scenarios by you.
The HD is horny, makes a move, and is rejected. Who was in control? The LD got what they wanted (no sex), but the HD didn’t. It may not look the same from the LD side, but from the HD perspective the LD had complete control. The HD wanted to ML, but the LD had veto power and exercised that power. Is that not control?
The HD is horny, but realizes that you just ML two days ago. The LD has a history of not being receptive more than maybe once a week. The HD exercises self-control and doesn’t make a move. The LD knows nothing about this, but the HD sees this as the LD controlling the SL. It’s hard to put into words, but in this case it’s the low desire itself, not the LD person that’s controlled the sitch. I know it’s wrong, but in such a case it’s all to easy to blame the person – your LD is thwarting my SL.
Sure, a lot of it is perception. I’ll also stipulate that in many cases the HD is controlling their own SL to fit with what they perceive as the LD’s preferences. But when all is said and done, the HD feels that they have no control over their own SL. They perceive that the LD has complete control of theirs (the LD’s) and either through actual direct control in the form of rejection, or implied control through causing the HD to limit initiation, they have control of the HD’s SL as well.
I’m still not sure that really explains it very well, but that’s the best I can do right now.
And now, I think I’ll grab those gift cards and do some shopping. Have a great weekend.
Quote: I think, is baring and sharing your souls to one another, part is letting go of the quest for physical nirvana and instead pursuing a whole connection.
Jenny, I don't see any inkling of this kind of thinking (didn't mean to rhyme ) in your saga. I was trying to get at it with questions about soul- or heart-connections between you two. Your descriptions seem very much on the surface. Does he/do you want to be intimate as GGB and the Nops have described it?
That's just it, Dave. I don't have any horiness for me OR him to control. It's not like it's in there and I'm withholding it on purpose. If it was in there, he could have every last drop of it.
Then HE needs to learn to better see the efforts you are making. That is the one thing I've learned to do. While Schnarch et al. say "don't take mercy sex", I've learned that rejecting her offer, or being a pill about it is completely wrong...like I said before, she usually ends up enjoy it a lot.
Like my counsellor said...It's up to me to make my sex life hot...not my W. And that I should do everything within my moral framework to have a hot sex life whether that be taking matters into my hands or whatever.
Sure, it must suck for my W to feel the way she does. She has shared those insecurities with me. She recently tried to tell me that she might be going into an early menopause. Whatever. If this is HER reality, then tough cookies for me that we don't match up. Should I punish her for it? Absolutely not. I've tried to be kind, understanding and empathetic but occasionally, I need to have a pity party for myself away from her. (this site works well for that). Now, on the other side of the coin, she has read SSM and other books that encourages women to MB and try a variety of things to get their libidos back and she hasn't done one of them. I think she still feels like "why should I do all that work when I should just say yes instead".
Quote:
Can you even fathom a life where Mr. Peter just doesn't work, and have to be in the position of trying to figure out how to make it work without drugs, or any other enhancements?
Would that mean you love your wife any less?
That would really suck. I feel bad for you. I feel bad for my W. This is who I am. She's probably living with guilt and a feeling of inadequecy. She's so non-confrontational and non-demanding because she's probably scared sh!tless that I'll have a PA on my next trip. Heck, a few drinks and a lingering bit of resentment might have pushed me over the edge in SF last week. I never had a bad thought about my w while I was in SF. It was 100% about me and my issues. But, I also didn't have enough passion to prevent me from doing that either. Why would I even play that game? Ooops...sorry, I started making this about me.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
) in your saga. I was trying to get at it with questions about soul- or heart-connections between you two. Your descriptions seem very much on the surface. Does he/do you want to be intimate as GGB and the Nops have described it?