Quote: So the issues are still there, waiting to be tackled. But I don't feel that he was making a statement that should be given too much significance. It appears it is weighing you down..that one thing he said...but I'm not sure it is an accurate reflection of his feelings.
I think he was just being an ass.
It's not so much the statement itself as it is the complete and utter lack of regard for me. Yes, he's being an ass. Yes, he is talking like a teenager. Yes, he is being obtuse, and yes, he is being rude.
He is also 56 years old, incredibly smart, a good father, a handsome man... and he treats the people with whom he works with ethics, compassion, politeness, and a can-do attitude, from the janitor all the way to his right-hand people. He speaks when he has something to say, and usually when he says something, it is from a deep well of knowledge and experience, that grabs people's attention.
He meets problems head-on and finds solutions to problems that seem unsolvable.
He's typically patient and kind with children. Old ladies and dogs love him.
He has a smile, a wave or a head nod for darn near everyone he passes on the street. He has a great sense of humor and can joke with just about anyone. He hates public speaking but does it anyway, because he has to in his job.
Yet... he says the things he does to me and pulls this crap of the past few weeks.
He knows better.
I'm not giving up on him or my M. I am not letting this one conversation ruin my marriage and cause endless suffering for my family because he's being an ass.
I am no longer interested in pursuing a line of effort that does not yield results. I am no longer interested in tolerating his 'ass-ness.' I am no longer interested in propping up his side of the M.
I am no longer interested in having my efforts thrown back in my face and stepped upon by a man who just doesn't have time to roll up his own sleeves.
It is obvious that my efforts have not yielded fruit. So, I either need to change jobs, or try my luck with vegetables.
I will continue to work on myself and change whatever I feel is necessary to meet my own standards of happiness. If he asks me to go to a function with him and I want to go, I'll go. I will ask for hugs because I need them. If I need sex, I'll initiate. If he initiates sex and I want to have sex, I will. But I am meeting no one's quota but my own.
This is what I am now focusing my energy on. If he has a problem with it, I'll guess he'll have to figure it out. That may sound a bit harsh and hardlined. I guess it is.
Corri, You've worked so hard to become the W of your Hs dreams. Unloading on you (figuratively and literally) is the last thing he should be doing. Ah, Corri, I pray that Mr. Corri sees the error of his ways.
HUGS to you, Nymph
I don't mind the sun sometime
The images it shows
I can taste you on my lips
And smell you in my clothes
Cinnamon and Sugar
And softly spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through someone elses eyes
BHS-"Pepper"
Corri: I was not saying that you should tolerate his assness or laugh it off and say, What a teenager you are!...
Not at all.
What I was saying was that, if you look beneath the delivery, you and he are saying the same thing to each other: I am not happy with the status of the R.
That seems, to me, to be a very positive sign and a joint place from which to start.
I understand that you are DONE being the R coach and I don't blame you. It is an exhausting, thankless, and fruitless role. What I don't understand is the "I'll do it if I want" approach. This sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. He has already been living this lifestyle and it really hasn't worked for him, or your M.
If you are adopting that approach because your H won't agree to do anything else, then I get it and understand and applaud you. If you are adopting it because you are sick of trying, well, then I'm going to be the first saying Get back in the game, girl.
One question: How was this addressed in MC? I'm specifically talking about him meeting YOUR needs. What did he agree to and how did that all pan out?
One last one: How does your husband usually bring it up that he is dissatisfied with the R? Is it in this same stellar fashion that he used the other night?
Quote: I was not saying that you should tolerate his assness or laugh it off and say, What a teenager you are!...
Oh, I know you were not.
Quote: What I was saying was that, if you look beneath the delivery, you and he are saying the same thing to each other: I am not happy with the status of the R.
That seems, to me, to be a very positive sign and a joint place from which to start.
Yes, that is what is occuring. We have no problem reaching this point.
Quote: If you are adopting that approach because your H won't agree to do anything else, then I get it and understand and applaud you.
The only thing H agrees upon is having more sex. He's entitled.
Quote: One question: How was this addressed in MC? I'm specifically talking about him meeting YOUR needs. What did he agree to and how did that all pan out?
First, I had to be able to verbalize to him what my needs were. This took me quite a lot of time to figure out. In the meantime, I did the 'just do it' approach... didn't think he should have to wait until I got my ducks in a row, hm?
Through this process, I was able to figure out what my needs were. I need to know, in a way that is meaningful to me, that I am wanted/needed/important to him. I need encouragement from him, I need him to share his thoughts with me. I guess I am a words of affirmation girl. When I told him this, I got: "Do you know how hard that is for me?!"
Well, yes, as a matter of fact I do.
Quote: One last one: How does your husband usually bring it up that he is dissatisfied with the R? Is it in this same stellar fashion that he used the other night?
- "Our sex life sucks."
- "Our relationship sucks."
- "You have control of the relationship and I just have to accept it."
- He'll tell CLOSE friends, in front of me, how long it's been since we've last had sex.
- "I need... x, y, z."
- He makes statements about what I am not doing for him, or he'll take pot shots at me.
I've spent time with him, telling him that he would get a much better, faster, different response from me if he would take a different approach with me. I've given him examples of phrases I'd like to hear. He sees this as a 'begging for the bone' scenario... much like an LD insists on seeing sex as 'you only want to get your rocks off.'
He is determined to see it this way, just as an LD insists that sex isn't important, to avoid confronting his own insecurities. I know how scary it is...
You know, it's funny, I could walk into MC tomorrow and tell the shrink EXACTLY WHY I am LD. That is a bonus revelation to me. I'm not blaming it on him, I just have a very firm grasp now on what makes me tick... and what doesn't.
Though I can get words of affirmation from darn near anyone, these are things I need from my H to fuel my desire for him. Yeah, I can get affirmation from the guy behind the counter at the grocery, but I don't want to have sex with the grocery guy.
I also know this is why I was vulnerable to and had an EA all those years ago. I was starved for this type of verbal intimacy, and a friendship became more than it should have. I didn't know at the time that this is what was missing from my life, and that is why I got it somewhere else. It isn't as obvious as sex, or a physcial need.
Now that I know this about myself, I understand that if someone zeros in on my verbal/emotional vulnverability, it is the same as a woman sexually coming on to a sex starved man.
To me, my needs are simple. Just as to my H, his needs are simple. In his defense, he has always known what his needs were, but I was not able to verbalize mine. Up and until the point that I could state my needs to him, I was probably more to blame for the state of our R than he was... simply because I didn't know how, did not take the time to figure out what I needed. How can I possibly blame him for that? How could he know something even I did not know?
So, through MC, it boiled down to this: "if you want to save your marriage, you had better figure out who and what you are, what you like, what you dislike, and figure out how to communicate that." This went for the both of us.
I think we pretty much know what we need to know now.
Where I am at fault, again, is trying to do without having my needs met. Overlooking his verbal insensitivities, not calling him on his ass-ness. Trying to fix the R by myself. His idea of working on the R is 'giving me room' to fix it, and me tolerating that.
I've allowed him his excuses... 'he's tired, he works hard, he's stressed.' I've even used these FOR him when he doesn't step up to the plate. I am just as guilty for his lack of success as he is because **I've** tried to fix HIS part.
This is why I am not mad nor angry at him. It's like I've been an overindulgent mother to a spoiled rotten brat of a son, who's committed his third felony and she still insists that he's a 'good boy.'
No, lady, he isn't a good boy, and the fact that you insist on saying he is, and treating him as if he is, is an enormous part of the problem.
I've gotten this far in my mulling. I now owe it to him to communicate this, and to tell him of my intentions. I'm still working on that part.
Sounds like you are crystal clear. Hugs to you. It is never easy to really say what we need. I know that to me it feels like I'm choking to death trying to get the words out.
The thing is that when you get to the place that you need to say what you have to say for your own sense of integrity then you will. It is good to understand what happened years ago but it is best the focus on the here and now and going forward. You are a very courageous lady.
You handle yourself with such dignity and self control. I wish Nop could speak to your H and knock some sense into him. I picture a basketball game where your H is committing flagrant fouls, then throwing his hands up and saying " not me". You have come so far and I know you will stay strong. I still think my idea to talk to a MC is a good one; I know you know what will be said, but an outside person may be able to get through to your H ( I am thinking a male therapist with a tough talk approach).
I know you have gone over with him, time and again, but I still have a feeling that he has no clue what he is supposed to do. Sortof like when I would tell my H that I needed him to be more "passionate"..I could give him 30 examples of what I was talking about..small things that virtually anyone could pull off, and he'd go all deer in the headlights and profess that he just couldn't do that.
I think that your husband is insisting on seeing this type of behavior as something that he is doing to get sex. Kudos to him for finding this idea repugnant. He should. None of us should have to jump through hoops to ML to our spouses.
However, if he could shift his thinking a little to seeing that this is behavior he should be doing simply because he's your husband, he might be more successful. If he were unfortunately castrated tomorrow, he would still be obligated to meet your needs, right?
Finally, I don't understand what "in a way that is meaningful to me" means. I don't need to understand..so I'm not asking for an explanation...but I'm pointing out that this is a VERY vague phrase. Have you thought about specific scenarios that would please you? Have you communicated this to your H? (I know you have!:) And, finally, what do you do to set the scene for these situations to take place?
One thing that my H has said to me repeatedly is "Help me be successful."
I think you were on to something with the affair with his job stuff. It seems that he has NO time for anything except work, p/u boys, collapse into bed and then desperately call for his wife for his needs to be met. Where does Corri fit into this picture?
Perhaps you can tell him, when he brings this up and we all know he will, that you are interested in hearing what kinds of concrete changes he is going to make in his daily routine in order to begin meeting your needs.
And based on how that goes, I may grow some ovaries and do the same with my H. LOL
Quote: Has he ever made efforts to meet your needs?
What happened with that?
Sex usually happens. Maybe not at that instant... like, if we've spent time together, talking during the day, that night we'll have great sex. But that's what happens when we're connecting. Not as a reward, but because... that's what happens.
Or I'll say thank you. Or give him a hug and an azz squeeze. I try to say thank you for your efforts in a way that is meaningful to him. That's usually in a physical form.
I wrote him a letter and left it in his car so he'll see it before he gets home. I'm sure we'll talk about it tonight, and I appreciate all the good points you've made here. I'll keep them in mind.
One of the things he has a real hard time getting his arms around is doing things for the good of the relationship instead of doing them for sex. He's still very much into bartar and trade. If he washes my car, he'd like to get sex as a way of thank you.
Quote: One thing that my H has said to me repeatedly is "Help me be successful."
There is a fine line between 'help me be successful' and 'do it for me.' From all the work you've done, you understand you can only help so much. Effort on their part is required at some point.
Yes, I've explained what 'in a way that is meaningful to me' means. I'll be happy to explain it again. I will support him. I will encourage him. I will no longer attempt to do it for him. My 'doing it for him' assists him in failing. I will step in, like I am doing now, in hopes of getting us back on track before we hit the wall... but then I will step back and let him flail around a bit until he finds his footing. I'm not going to let him go under, but at some point, he's gotta get a grip and start swimming.
It's hard to watch him struggle. But I love him too much to see him fail, and struggling is a part of succeeding.
H read my letter before he came home from work last night. As it was such a warm evening, we grilled out for dinner. H and I sat on our deck and had a discussion.
I don't know if I will ever stop being astounded by how he can surprise me. I guess I set the tone for the conversation from the letter, because I was not accusatory or mean. In any event, he was not angry, and we actually had a really great discussion.
He told me that yes he has noticed that our relationship had taken a back slide, but his way of dealing with it was to ignore it and hoped it would 'fix' itself. He said he realized that this was not a very action-oriented way of doing things.
We talked a good deal about my needs, and HP, you were right in that he was thinking that he had to meet certain specifications of mine in order for his needs to be met. I used your line verbatim: "Honey, if you were castrated tomorrow and never able to have sex again, I'd still need these things from you." That revelation rather shocked him.
He then told me he tried to meet my needs and I asked him how he thought he was doing so. Not to critique his efforts, but so that I know his game plan and can be aware of his efforts.
He brought up a specific instance of when we were in the car and he tried to hold my hand. He felt resistance from me. So I said to him: "Okay, here is my point. You are attempting to communicate to me in a way that is meaningful to you, not me. I mean, I like holding your hand, but I get different meaning from it than you do." He asked me how then is he supposed to communicate with me?
ME: "Honey, do you hold hands with your employees? Do you communicate with them through physical touch?
HIM: "No"
ME: "Yet you are able, in a very capable way, of determining not only what you need to communiate, but how to adjust that communication based upon the employee with whom you are dealing. Right?"
HIM: "Yeah, I see your point."
ME: "I'm not asking you to adopt or even accept my needs as your own. You don't have to understand them, nor even consider them rational. But I would like it if you honored them, just as I honor your need for physical affection and sex."
HIM: "But I just don't know how."
ME: "Well, see, that is another frustration of mine. If you don't know how to do something at work, you get a book and look it up. You go to a workshop. You ask someone who does know how to do it."
HIM: "Huh. (head nod) "But there are many times I think I am doing what you need or want and it doesn't seem to work."
ME: "Well. At work, if you do something and get absolutely no response from your employees, you will go to them and say, "I did a,b,c. I'm not getting from you what I expected. Did you not understand? Do I need to further clarify myself? Or is there something else I need to be aware of?" So... if you do something and don't get the response you want from me, instead of getting mad, clarify it. If I'm just being a chump, I'm going to have to own it. (I gave him several other examples of typical interactions between us to underscore my point). He nodded his head and said, 'yeah, yeah, I see your point.'
In the letter I had also said "I am hereby resigning my position as relationship rescuer and intimate secretary to Mr. Corri." Meaning that, I was no longer willing to be the only one to rush in and intiate a conversation if our relationship started backsliding, especially when he is noticing the same thing. I told him it scares me and hurts me when he just goes 'passive' on me.
I told him I was done trying to guess his wants, predict his moods, intuit his wishes... and if he could learn and practice expressing his needs in a manner that might even meet MY needs... he was killing two birds with one stone. (My H loves efficiency).
We talked for a really long time, about his job, about the guilt he was feeling being away from the family so much, him wondering if he was going to apply for his job on a permanent basis (it is an interim position right now, but he's being 'pressured' to apply for it)...
The job thing is still an unresolved issue, and we are going to have to really examine it and what it would mean to us long-term if a) he applied and b) if he got it.
At any rate, I was pleasantly stunned by the entire conversation. Then he told me about an email he got from a woman who works for him, and she went on and on about an issue at work. He wrote back to her and said, 'you just summed up the problem succinctly. But I know what the problem is. What I need from you is a solution. Please get back to me when you think you might have one.' He looked at me and said, 'I learned that from you, btw.'
Wow. He gets it. He really gets it. Damn, now I'm crying...
