Jenny and OG, thanks for the comments. First, one of the reasons I don't bail is that the voice is saying "it shouldn't have to be this hard," not "it DOESN'T have to be this hard." I've been in several long term Rs over the past 30 years, and every one of them hit a wall at some point. My tendency is to bail, not to stay and work. This may come, in part, from the AF brat background-- just move on and don't look back. I think I left my first marriage too soon. With the proper help, we probably could have made a go of it.
But clearly I have gotten myself into a R that hits many of my hot buttons. I feel very strongly that if I bail without figuring out what those are, I'll attract the very same man all over again. Or as my C says: let myself be attracted to the same man again.
I think that my experience with my husband's many health crises affected my ability to look at an event and say: "I'm not going to put up with this." As one life threatening crisis after another came at us, I just absorbed it and went on. At no time did I seriously consider bailing. But I think, as a result, I lost the ability to know when enough is too much. I know that good R's have crises and difficult times. I just don't know or don't trust myself to know when it's time to leave.
I appreciate your comments and I will ponder them. The lack of sex isn't the only issue. But the lack of maturity, of which I think the lack of sex is a manifestation, is closer to the mark.
I have to ask myself, as y'all asked CeMar (and I guess many of us could ask ourselves): Could I handle a fully mature adult partner (sexually and otherwise)? There's a reason why we let ourselves get into and stay in the crucible with these people.
Quote: I have to ask myself, as y'all asked CeMar (and I guess many of us could ask ourselves): Could I handle a fully mature adult partner (sexually and otherwise)? There's a reason why we let ourselves get into and stay in the crucible with these people.
Ah, Lillie,
This is just the question I've asked myself over and over again...looking back, I think I asked it of myself as i was getting married!
I understand you wanting to 'figure things out', I'm feeling that way myself as well. When does it stop being 'bailing out' and start being standing up for your integrity?
I'm sure ALL Rs hit a wall. If there are two adult people involved, when at least one of them notices that it ain't goin anywhere, and points it out, hopefully the other one realizes it as well, you'll be able to hash it out, and get stronger in the process.
But when one insists on continuing to bang their head-at what point should the other say, 'hey, this hurts! I'm not going to do it anymore!' I think we have to - and hopefully, the other might say, 'hey, you're right', or then they'll just keep banging. Either way, we've taken care of ourselves. If the other keeps on banging, and we walk away, to find they're not willing to stop, and we go back to join them - we have no one to blame but ourselvs. At that point we've decided that their pain is more important to us than our own safety.
Yes, the vows we take, out loud or in our hearts, do say we are going to stay through hard times, but I don't think they include staying in the car when the other is driving way too fast and carelessly. It does mean that we take turns driving, if one is better at filling the tank, they do that, the other might be better at changing a tire. You accept your strengths, and weaknesses, and use them so that both of you benefit.
I think, for me, part of the reason I've stayed here, is that H was able to 'play' on my weakness - disorganization and 'fear' of money. These were his strong points, and he used that to his advantage, sort of convincing me that I wouldn't be able to take care of myself (this was never said outloud in such direct terms, I would have run at that).
Your bf offers you something you need. And you're not willing to give that up, at least right now, for the possibility of getting something more mature. It could be in going elsewhere, you'd have to make a compromise in another area. It's back to what Corri said about having opinions, and JJ about priorities: what are we willing to compromise on, and what are the absolutes we won't live without.
We do have to know ourselves, and be willing to present ourselves to others before we can expect them to do the same.
Ok, I realise this post is a bit disjointed, and I'm sort of running in two directions at once, but this is about the best I can do right now with lack of sleep and 4 kids fighting for mommy's attention. Gotta go take care of them...
If you got out of this R, and ran straight into another, yes, you probably would end up with the same bunch of problems. But you need to decide if you can figure out your needs and priorities while staying in this R - or do you need to get out to see straight.
I'm interested in the advice you have to offer as someone who has weathered a few relationships. It seems to me that the sex would always have to "go bad" as a relationship "goes bad", but the sex "going bad" would not necessarily be the reason why the relationship "went bad". I wonder about this because my H had only 3 lovers before we married and by his own report, two of them left him because of his low desire for sex. These were both relationships that only lasted a matter of monthes. I understand that relationship problems can "break" someone's sex drive, but don't people sometimes show up in relationships with sex drives that are already "broken"? I think this makes a subtle but important difference in how the HD partner needs to proceed. OTOH, the HD partner needs to do their share of relationship "fixing" in order to directly fix the sex problem. OTOH, the HD partner needs to do their share of relationship "fixing" and "fix" the problems that they brought to the relationship in order to encourage the LD partner to fix the sex problem that they brought to the relationship.
If I primarily blame relationship problems for my H's LD then this is the same as primarily blaming relationship problems for the fact that I became overweight. I was thin when I married, but I came into the marriage with a certain genetic and psychological makeup that made me prone to seek out food in reaction to stress resulting in an unfortunate effect on my figure. To the extent that I blamed this problem on my married childbearing state or my H's lack of support or any random stressor that popped up, I was unsuccessful in taking off the weight. I had to recognize that I was a person who had to work hard in order to overcome lifelong tendencies and lose the weight. This is not a problem that just magically goes away.
I think a person who comes into a relationship with a tendency towards LD reactions has a similar sort of problem. If they want to have a healthy active sex life they need to take personal responsibility for dealing with stress and "thinking sexy" in the same way that I had to take personal responsibility for dealing with stress and "thinking thin". I think the HD partner's role in this process should be the same as the naturally thin spouse's role.
1) Encourage weight loss but don't take responsibility for your partner's weight or weight loss plan.
2) Make it clear that you love your spouse but your strong preference is for a thinner partner.
3) Don't get too excited at the first signs of weight loss or too disappointed at the sign of a backslide. New habits are hard to learn and it isn't necessarily a linear process.
4) Remember you are free to decide at any time whether you are willing to stay in a relationship with someone who is unhealthily overweight (especially if "overweight" really means "LD" and your own health is affected directly). Think about your preferences and your priorities.
Sorry for the digression into yet another analogy. I guess what I'm trying to say is any sort of habit or tendency such as overeating or drinking or LD or the clingy form of HD can be seen as an "immature" reaction to stress or emotional upset. You are hurt or frightened so you need to have a cookie or a bottle or pout alone in the corner or throw a temper tantrum or clutch at your "lovey". The important thing to note is that the things we are seeking in such immature ways are things that we do need in our lives such as physical nourishment, personal space or recognition and physical intimacy, we just need to figure out how to seek them in a mature and balanced manner and allow our partner's the freedom to do the same.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: If you got out of this R, and ran straight into another, yes, you probably would end up with the same bunch of problems. But you need to decide if you can figure out your needs and priorities while staying in this R - or do you need to get out to see straight.
I was talking to one of my sister's about my recent weight loss. She knew that I've been having some marital difficulties so she said "People always lose weight when they get divorced.". I think the natural tendency is to leave a painful relationship and then try to fix all your personal problems before you get into another one, but if you just lose weight because you find yourself single again what's to stop you from gaining weight again when you remarry? I think it's a worthwhile effort to try and "fix" yourself within the confines of your relationship because even if you don't manage to save your relationship at least you have been "training" under the real-life conditions of a long-term relationship, not under the optimal conditions of being single or in a fresh relationship. Of course, if working on yourself in your current relationship is the equivalent of training on an uphill course in baking heat and humidity and an empty water bottle, you have to wonder whether you better quit before you keel over from heat stroke. There's some truth to the saying "Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger." but it's also true that picking repeatedly at a scab can lead to infection or lasting scars. For instance, I have real fears regarding my mental health in this relationship. I don't think sexual rejection is at all good for me because I have inherited some borderline manic-depressive tendencies from my mother. I don't see how this is any different from recognizing the fact that second-hand smoke is especially bad for me because I inherited asthma from my mother. If I'm put into a situation that might make someone hysterical, it WILL make me hysterical. If I'm put into a situation that might make someone wheeze, it WILL make me wheeze. It might just be good sense for me to seek out a relationship with a HD non-smoker.
P.S. Can someone please tell me what it means when a person can't stop thinking in analogies? Is there a name for this syndrome?
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Okay, here is my personal ad based on my previous post.
F39 asthmatic,recovering cookie addict with tendency towards hysterical despair if thwarted in her quest for transcendent sex seeks non-smoking M30+. Must enjoy healthy eating and provide iron-clad erection guarantee. Call Jenny at 867-5309 for details.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I think that there's something about a long term relationship that brings out the regressed, immature side of a person. I do think I would become stronger being on my own, but is that really strength? It's like going to a spa to lose weight and then coming home again.
I do feel there is meaning in struggle and if you keep a sense of purpose then it becomes a lot easier. I don't mean becoming a martyr...it's about working toward achieving a vision that's important to you. This is why I haven't given up.
Jenny wrote{quote]I guess what I'm trying to say is any sort of habit or tendency such as overeating or drinking or LD or the clingy form of HD can be seen as an "immature" reaction to stress or emotional upset.
Let me say again that when I talk about someone being immature, I'm not talking about sporadic immature behavior from an otherwise rational adult. I'm talking about a person in an adult body who is truly not grown up on the inside, for one reason or another. It clarifies so many things for me when I look at some of my bf's behavior as being that of a 16-year old. For example, yesterday his mom called him about some legal business that he had not taken care of. He said he would call the lawyer and call her back in a couple of hours. HEL-LO! It was Saturday. You can't talk to a lawyer in his/her office on Saturday. And of course, he didn't call her back. This is the behavior of a teenager. It's not a quirky thing that an adult might do. An adult might occasionally eat a whole half gallon of ice cream at one sitting, but he wouldn't do it weekly, alone, at night, after everyone is asleep, in front of the refrigerator, in his pajamas. Do you see what I'm getting at? Must run... more later Glad to hear from you, FF.
This discussion is really helping me clarify some things in my own mind. Thank you all.
One thing about my bf that is golden... I can't remember if this came out for the first time when we were talking on our own, or at the C's, but he was talking about stuff that had happened to him when he was a kid. His mom beat him a lot, because he challenged her authority and, being an adolescent (emotionally) herself and something of a bully, she didn't know anything else to do besides hit him. He got through this, but not without damage to himself and his trust of women. (There's more, but you get the idea.)
So one day he said, "there's this little flame inside me that won't go out. People have tried to put it out, but I have protected myself, and it's still glowing." He said this in a very honest, straightforward way, and I felt I was seeing into the nucleus of the atom. When he said it, a big light bulb went on over my head, because that's exactly the way I see myself. (I'm sure many can identify with this analogy, but it was the two of us that day, sharing with each other, that made it special.) (And BTW JJ, there is no cure for thinking in analogies. I do it constantly, too, and consider it a gift.) I told him that I feel the closest to him, and feel that we're on track, when the line between our two little flames is open. I think keeping this channel open is what the NOP's have accomplished with their Just Do It Everyday program.
The Little Flame is not child-ISH-ness, i.e., initiating sex by tickling when your partner doesn't like it, or acting goofy, or refusing to refer to sex as anything but "fooling around," or for that matter, having a tug-o-war with your partner every day about dinner and who bought v. who’s going to cook it. The Little Flames fall into the child-LIKE joy and wonder zone, where you see and meet someone with pure, ingenuous clarity. During the day, when interacting with others at work and in the world, we wear masks of competence, ferocity, control. But at home, at night, I want to be able to take off the mask and let my flame relate to his flame. We do show this child-like quality with each other in many ways. I have not done this with too many past partners. One of my past partners was actually TOO “grown-up” in the sense of being stuffy, gruff, too rational. My bf can play. I hope that eventually we will be able to play in bed.
Re past R's. Yeah every one of them hit a wall and the sex went away. And I used to think that the "lack of sexual compatibility" was the problem. But now I think that "sexual compatibility" is a manifestation of the ease and openness of knowing you can be yourself and show that Little Flame. The LF is the part that is Deeply You, and you reveal it IN ITS ENTIRETY only to those most intimate with you. Given that there was enough physical attraction to get you into the R, it is a challenge to stay open with each other. I think the GGB’s discovered this at the Marriage Encounter weekend: the opened the channel between their LF’s with complete honesty and sexual energy has been flowing along that channel.
Clearly when I look at past R’s where I hit a wall and bailed (or he did), the one common denominator is ME. I truly own my part in this. From Day One of this R, I’ve asked myself, “is it him or is it me?” It’s like I’m trying to take water and turn it back into hydrogen and oxygen. But it’s important to me to do this. I am someone who analyzes and who thinks in analogies and metaphors.
I’ve learned a lot on this board, and I thank you all.
I know what you mean. I am attracted to this child-like, little flame in my H too. The problem is this little flame of his doesn't seem to be sexual or even very social. For instance, one of the things I find delightful about my H is the fact that he sometimes dances full of joy like Snoopy. I remember being at a wedding and watching my H dance like that and knowing that I couldn't join him in this private dance of joy and knowing that he wouldn't think to ask me to join him. I ended up asking my brother-in-law to dance since he was there without his wife. It was an odd sensation to feel like my brother-in-law who I barely know was more accessible to me as a dance partner than the man I'd been married to for many years.
It's similarily odd to consider the fact that a complete stranger at a biker bar would probably be more sexually accessible to me than my husband.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
It's interesting you should bring up dancing. I remember when I was married the first time going to a New Year's Eve party with my husband. It was probably New Year's of 1973. There was a couple there, she was pregnant. Her husband was an ex Catholic brother like my husband. At one point they danced with each other, not close, but holding both their hands, just gazing at each other, so happy, so close... I envied it then, and I still do. It was a moment of complete sharing and openness. My first husband and I never had that. We were both too child-ISH to share that way and to let ourselves see and be seen that way. When I looked at that couple, I felt very young (although they weren't any older than we were, and hadn't been married any longer.)
The constantly recurring theme is "can we both come out of hiding?" This is the essence of Passionate Marriage: show yourself whether you feel it's safe or not, and then hold on for your partner's reaction. One of us has to come out of hiding first.
It's funny, because I used to say to my late H that it felt to me that I had come out into the clearing and exposed myself and that he continued to hide in the bushes.
I think you're right that that place where your husband dances for sheer joy is a place where, if he would let you join him, you would find shared bliss. Not permanent bliss, but a taste of it, and moments of it that you could come back to, enough to keep you going and enough to keep you firmly in love with him. If that place could be the place where you could meet to ML... ah... how sweet...
There's some truth to the saying "Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger." but it's also true that picking repeatedly at a scab can lead to infection or lasting scars. For instance, I have real fears regarding my mental health in this relationship. I don't think sexual rejection is at all good for me because I have inherited some borderline manic-depressive tendencies from my mother. I don't see how this is any different from recognizing the fact that second-hand smoke is especially bad for me because I inherited asthma from my mother. If I'm put into a situation that might make someone hysterical, it WILL make me hysterical. If I'm put into a situation that might make someone wheeze, it WILL make me wheeze. It might just be good sense for me to seek out a relationship with a HD non-smoker.