Delighting in Details

[Underdog]

Hi Slowly!

Wow, sorry to hear you're having a tough go here lately.

I don't have much to add--Livnlearn hit some really great points, as did Ellie.

I'm probably one of those women who would be booed off the stage for feeling the way I do about Valentines Day. But I'll risk it and offer a perspective that, although unpopular, is valid. At least for me.

I've never like Valentines Day. It brings back unpleasant memories of being a kid and receiving less Valentines than other kids. Nowadays, the kids have to have one for every child in the class... To me, it feels like a manufactured "holiday" (I'd even go so far as to say it's a conspiracy by the retailers) and I don't like guilt inspired gift giving.

But I've also received some very special mementoes. My dad has always written a poem expressing what is in his heart to my mom and siblings (and now my daughters). I enjoy receiving them, and I also enjoy leaving cards for Mr. W or significant male, my kids and parents.

It's a personal preference, and it makes me very uncomfortable. However, I married someone who absolutely ADORES Valentines Day. Until he moved out, he's always given me very thoughtful and lavish gifts--including a leather jacket, a ruby and diamond ring, and lots of other really beautiful jewelry. I always found it odd, given the fact that his birthday is 4 days before VD. So when I didn't devote as much energy to VD as he did, he was crestfallen and assumed that I did not love him as much as he loved me. (It took him at least 7 years to tell me that he felt this way.)

I don't know if it's true in the UK, but you can't find a place to have dinner here without making reservations far in advance, and the newspapers are always running lavish and extravagant specials that imply if you do less, your spouse/SO doesn't love you enough.

I ended up telling Mr. W. that I would much rather him devote that much energy to my birthday. My birthday is all about me. Nobody is dying to be at the restaurant on my special day, and I don't have to share it with every other person on the planet.

Slowly, he never acknowledged my feelings. Except for the year I turned 40, he never got me a cake (though I did get presents). We never went out to dinner. But I continued to get lavish Valentine presents that were appreciated, but not to the degree he would have like to have seen from me.

My point? And I think you hinted to it in your comment:

My problem is breaking the habit of 20 years - I've always been a bit insular, and have preferred my space, and inevitably dug a 'chore hole' for myself. Right now, I'm not yet good at even asking, never mind nagging, for what I want. NG is just doing what he always did, gave me the space.

We all get "stuck" in old patterns. Yes, you have changed. But it's human nature to fight it tooth and nail. If you're anything like me, that change was not voluntary or embraced--it was forced and difficult. You recognized the severity of your circumstances and saw a need to step up to the plate.

But many of our spouses clearly fear doing just this. It takes them much longer to see change as positive--I'll even wager that the only way some of them even get to that point is to have enough distance between them and the event that forced it to see it clearly.

At some point, it may just be healthy to put some imaginary blinders on so that you see only what you are doing and that whatever NG is doing has no bearing on how you proceed. Accept the fact that he loves you and wants to be with you. But continue to chart out your own territory and go after the things that are important to you.

If you change how you see him, you just might see that his motives aren't so different than yours. You just execute them differently. Not better or worse. Differently.

I have a special needs kid, which makes this a little more clear for me. I know she's a kid and also human, and has different limitations and abilities. So I don't expect her to perform as I would a typical kid. I go to her level and accept who she is right there. It's a great lesson with others... because that's all we want from our loved ones, isn't it? To be loved just because we are who we are and not what we can give others?

I'm not saying you're guilty of this, but sometimes it just requires putting on a different set of glasses to see the same environment differently.

What if you could just walk into the room and instinctively know that NG loves you enough, and he's doing the best he can? I bet that would go a long way in soothing your anxieties?

Hugs, special lady. (LNL--you didn't sound preachy at all to me. I enjoyed reading your comments!)

Betsey

[slowly]

Hi LnL, Michele, Ellie, Pen and Betsey - Thank you so much for your feedback, lots for me to mull over tonight, or this morning I should say, as it is midnight here I'll start with the big one just for now

Have you indeed forgiven him, or are you waiting till he owns up, and apologises?

LnL - I'm not sure what I'm supposed to forgive - and it seems like he does not know what he should be sorry for. Its like too painful to even contemplate, but I also think it is what gets us stuck. Sometimes I think NG just wants to move on, and wishes the past 2 years never happened. In fact, he has muttered a while ago that he just wants to forget. In some ways, so do I. But I have to face reality that NG is not the person I thought he was, someone I can trust. Even today, his version of facts is different from what I know them to be, which just drives me nuts.

Lots of other points that I will respond to tomorrow. Roll on Friday.

Goodnight all.

Slowly

[mojo]

Hi Slowly

I don't know really. And maybe I'm looking at this just a little bit too simplisticly. But why can't you just forget it? Now, I know this might be a strange suggestion. But I think I could do just that. I think I could forget it. I'm sure that it's not for everyone. And looking at my situation I think I could forget it and my h couldn't. And so in a relationship you would need two people who could forget it for this to work. . I'm laying myself wide open now because I'm sure there's loads of people here who would disagree with me and think I'm some sort of a nut. But to help people who have helped me I'm prepared for that.

Love MoJo xox

[slowly]

'Morning all Happy Friday! I have to say, there is little better than great feedback from the 'tribal elders' here at the board

Accept the fact that he loves you and wants to be with you. But continue to chart out your own territory and go after the things that are important to you. If you change how you see him, you just might see that his motives aren't so different than yours. You just execute them differently. Not better or worse. Differently.

Yes, I'm guilty of derailing myself by forgetting that we do thing differently In most ways that matter, NG loves me. I have no doubt that even when he was in the absolute grip of the a, I was still the most important person in his life. Of course, not as important as I think I am

At some point, it may just be healthy to put some imaginary blinders on so that you see only what you are doing and that whatever NG is doing has no bearing on how you proceed.

To be honest, I'm getting stuck here. Maybe because this has been BOTH our approach for the past 20 years, and I guess I'm nervious about doing something that does not work. But then again, we were happy, so maybe it did work It may be time for me to do some hard work and list out the before and after of various aspects of our life together...

But many of our spouses clearly fear doing just this. It takes them much longer to see change as positive--I'll even wager that the only way some of them even get to that point is to have enough distance between them and the event that forced it to see it clearly.

This is so what NG is doing. Couched under the terms of 'I don't want to pay for the a for the rest of my life' he is adamantly sticking to the old habits as much as possible. Me on the other hand, feel strangely liberated. Its like I have now shaken a strange paralysis (self imposed of course) and am eager to try out new things. Ergo, we have some inherent conflict that needs careful management.

Valentine's day per se is not the issue, perhaps more the lack of courtesy in not even acknowledging my card. But here again, its not a personal issue, NG finds it difficult to say 'please' or 'thank you' to anyone. I just thought post a, I deserved better

Slowly

[slowly]

Hi Ellie, Michele and Pen - I still find NG's perspective of the a fascinating

Sure, my H should have never taken any of those steps. But she definitely was on the hunt - and H never realized it at the time. It was only later, after we had been reconciled for a while, that he realized he had been had.

Pre-dbing, I recall chatting with NG about how ow has been after him for years while they were colleagues, and NG defended her, that she was not that kind of woman, yada yada yada - and Ellie, just as you say, here we are, he can see a different side to it.

Michele and Pen, unfortunately there is also a lot of truth in your words. Part of this new position is NG trying to wriggle out of his responsibilities - he is a major problem avoider, and is even now thinking how to justify his actions to himself. The other part is just reality - ow is, in his words, 'lesser' than me in every way, except she was there to listen without judgement. (Yeah, I used to express a lot of opinions ). NG tells me that ow lessened the pressure on him once she realised she 'could not hold a candle to me' when it came to his affections - so NG must be going through the process of trying to figure out why it all started in the first place...

I'll keep y'all posted as more of his tortured thinking is revealed

Slowly

[slowly]

Hi Lnl - No, it was not preachy at all - I really appreciate your feedback

One thing I'd like to point out, is that if someone is not that into gift giving, cards etc, it is very likely that this is because it was not a ritual in HIS family while growing up. Not a part of the family culture. Would I be right there?

You are dead right! In his life, he has received more birthday gifts from my mother than his mother, for example. I cannot recall him sending anything to any of his relatives, and when they thank us for the stuff we send, he is almost always surprised because he was not interested when I was updating him So yes, it is not personal, but one of my long term goals is to have him treat me differently. I'll not not wig out in the meantime, though. I promise

And Slowly, have you explicitely owned up to any of your shortcomings to your H?

Lnl - this is a tough one. I'm still feeling my way through just for myself, and to be honest, in true dbing style, I'm adopting a solution based approach, just focusing on what I want to change. Owning up to NG - gee, according to him, there was nothing wrong, so how do I start

Slowly

[slowly]

Hi Mojo - I like alternative perspectives, and to be honest, these days, I 'forget' more than I remember, and it is getting better all the time. My issue is one of respect and trust. Every time I catch NG telling fibs, I go back to the bad place where I wonder how to have intimacy in my life without trust or respect. I found this over at Wonder's thread

I keep coming back to the bits in Susan Anderson's book about love and connection... that "love isn't pursuit, isn't infatuation". That it is trust and respect and admiration and caring. It is what we're doing and the sparks we are letting in. That it's not the emotional hunger we might be used to from all that time trying to win over an unavailable partner.

Respect is important to me, and every time he lies, he is being disrespectful to himself, and to me. Where is this going How can we have true intimacy without respect?

I think the answer is in time. Probably.

Slowly

[mojo]

Slowly

For me what I mean by agreeing to forget is that whatever it is we're forgetting doesn't happen again. So, no more lies. The respect thing? Well that's a different matter isn't it? Respect will be re built I believe after time.

Love MoJo xox

[slowly]

Hi Mojo - Every now and again, I need to be hit about the head with some of the basics - this time, its the one about not being able to control anyone else So here I am, well before the crack of dawn on a Monday morning. A new resolution, I will forge my own path.

We had a fab weekend, so good in fact that I did not do some editing that needs to be ready for this afternoon, hence the early start. We had our usual yoga session Saturday morning, then prepared for the party we hosted on Sat nite - to celebrate NG's promotion - its a 180 for me, throwing a party for his promotion. Went well, he enjoyed the time with friends. Sunday brunch with some friends who are moving out of town, had a little snooze in the afternoon ( ) and generally chilled out in the evening. Wonderful.

This week promises to be busy with client meetings and tough deadlines. I intend to be fun, and relaxing to be with

Slowly

[slowly]

If I needed more guidance on the gift that comes our way - my Cainercast for the week

Some days we win. Some days we lose. Some days we just can't tell whether we are losing or winning. Those usually turn out to be the best days of all. They are certainly the most fruitful, even if they are not always the most enjoyable. Certainties afford us a false sense of security. Doubts, though, are far more valuable. They cause us to think and reflect. This expands our intellect and ultimately increases our ability to achieve. You really don't know where you stand now regarding a particular person or situation. This may be bothering and bugging you, but ultimately, it's good news.