Thanks to all. This board, and all of you, has been an island of sanity in my insane life. You have all given me great advice.
Last night, predictably, more sh!t was thrown in my direction. She called me on her way home and presented me with this analogy:
"What if I asked you to stand on the edge of a 500 foot cliff, look down, sit down, and dangle your legs over the side."
Understand that fear of unprotected heights is one of, perhaps my biggest, fear.
I told her that it wasn't the best analogy, but that I would try to work with it. I asked her, first, whether doing this would help make her feel loved, and whether not doing it would leave her feeling a lack of connection between us. She said, assume that is the way I feel. I told her that I would try my hardest, knowing how important it was to her, to comply. I told her that I would see a psychiatrist, or even a hypnotist, to get over my fear of heights.
She said, "are you telling me to go to a hypnotist to increase my sex drive?" Sigh.
"No, I'm telling you that, in the context of your analogy, I would try every option to overcome my shortcomings, in order to help you feel loved." More pointless discussion followed.
Later on, I went downstairs where she was watching TV and sat next to her. She took my hand and held it for a while. She said, "I wish you knew that I loved you."
"I do know that you love me."
"I don't think you believe it," she said. Once again, knowing better of what is in my head than I do, apparently.
"I think the problem is that we have different definitions of love, and especially, marital love," I said. Thereafter followed the usual discussion of how, if I just relaxed, it would just happen, me denying that and saying that I have tried that and nothing improved, and her saying that I never really relaxed, etc., once again, her knowing more about my thoughts than I do.
I saw the conversation going the same way it always does and said that we should just stop this and save it for the MC. That shut her up for about 5 minutes.
W: I wish you could just be happy with our marriage the way it is. Why do I have to be the one to increase my sex drive? Why can't you just take a pill or get hypnotized to decrease yours?
H: The anti-depressant I'm on has helped that somewhat already, as has age, and the general situation of not having sex.
W: Well maybe you need to decrease it more.
H: Why aren't you willing to make an effort?
Whereafter she said that she'd taken herbal supplements (we all know how magical they work), talked to a doctor about it (once), and just tried to be "more aware" of when she becomes aroused, per the advice of Michele in TSSM. She also said that, if we divorced, where would I be then? Would I find another woman who would tolerate my ex, my kids, etc? I told her that was my problem, not hers.
She also said that scheduled sex would not work because she can't just WILL herself to be aroused. She said that I couldn't expect her to perform on schedule. I once again said that we should stop trying to work on this ourselves, as we were just hurting one another, and should save our issues for MC. I then went up to bed.
And yes, predictably, she came up, an hour and a half later, and started talking to the sleeping Hairdog. I told her not to do this, but she continued, and I didn't respond to anything she said, including "sometimes you act like such a child" (bingo...my fault in that I tolerated her treating me like a child for too long).
This morning, when I went up to say goodbye, she gave me a big hug, and also just called me to share something she had heard on NPR about price gouging. She, at turns, is affectionate, pleasant, angry, stubborn, downright hateful, worried, etc.
I've been HOM okay. I am willing to go to MC (and think it's a great idea to go separately before jointly) and try to work this out. But I am resolute: I will not live in a sexless marriage indefinitely.
It sounds like you did ok with all that crap thrown at you last night. Sounds like she is really trying to put all the blame of wanting sex on you. I cannot even imagine my H asking me to take a pill or something to decrease my sex drive ... pfffffffffttttttttttt She really seems to be scared. You are doing ok guy, in my opinion. ((((hugs)))))
Good job. What a tough night. Would it be better for you if tonight you went out for a bit? Maybe just saw a movie, went to a bookstore or something of that sort. Tell Mrs. HD that you need some time to yourself and let her figure it out. Give yourself a little space.
I honestly do think that it would be reasonable to ask someone to try to "decrease their drive" if the deal was that they needed sex every day, no exceptions and the other spouse needed a day between encounters to refuel. I know of a couple where the H wanted sex several times every day. It was fine for them because so did she. Most of us here would be thrilled with every other day or even every couple of days with a willing partner. HD - that is NOT unreasonable.
So she wants to know where you would be if a divorce happened...where would she wind up? If she is truthful in a future possible R with someone, will she be honest about her huge problem with sex? She would wind up alone...no man in his right mind will marry a woman who doesn't want to touch him sexually. It is clear she wants this M on her terms...I'm sorry, but asking you to do something about your normal sex drive is just outright wrong. You kept it under control for how long now? Sex once or twice a year? Does she realize how many men would be out the door looking for love in all the wrong places to satisfy their needs? As bad as that sounds, that is reality. You are not doing that. I think she needs serious counseling about her extreme aversion to sex and anything dealing with it. I have no idea how someone gets to that point...especially given she is relatively young woman.
During one convo with my H, I actually offered to research if there was a female equivalent of saltpeter. Thankfully my H didn't take me seriously. He did sort of bring up the same topic in our convo yesterday. He suggested that if we had a trial separation, I might come to realize that I could get by with less sex, but then he indicated that he knew that this was an unreasonable expectation and he added that he would be able to tell if I was just pretending to not want to have sex because I'm not a very good actress.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
You know, I think the cliff analogy is very telling. Now you know with crystal clarity that your wife is dealing with a deep-seeded fear. Her anger, resentment, frustration and outright meanness are masks for this fear. (Fight or flight syndrome at its finest).
I'm going to caution you at this point on giving her questions that begin with 'why.' Why can't you... why do you... why don't you...
These questions will spiral into an argument in 10 seconds flat. A very big part of the problem is she doesn't know the answer to 'why,' nor has she taken time to figure it out. Understand that it is far, far easier to project problems onto your partner than it is to face our own fears.
Why isn't she willing to make an effort? Because there is an iceberg of fear inside of her and you and she are only seeing the tip of it.
When she starts throwing these types of analogies at you, trying to get you to see her POV, she is in panic mode. Understand that you are dealing with a very frightened animal, here. Asking her 'why' questions at this point, only compounds the fear.
You've scored a major victory is getting her to agree to MC. She will continue to try and derail you by trying to convince you that you are the one with the problem. You can reassure her, but not agree with her, by saying 'yes, there is most definitely a problem, and that is why we are getting help.'
Leave D discussions OUT of it. My shrink used to say to me, 'you can threaten to throttle your spouse, but never, ever threaten to leave them. The D word only increases fear and compounds the problem.'
Does this help you? No. And that really sucks because I know you are in sore need of some reassurance yourself. But... you have us, aren't you lucky. You are going to get through this. This is Huge Hump Number One. It's the hardest one to get over.
Corri: You just articulated about everything I've been thinking regarding her analogy. I was trying to break it down, prove it's irrelevance, and then just kind of went, "DUH" when I thought about the fear aspect. Seeing her as so very fearful helps a lot with my ability to be compassionate toward her. I know she has a fear of abandonment, but I never really looked too closely at her fear of intimacy, especially physical intimacy.
And you're right about those "why" questions. They seem to always be the prelude to an increase in hostilities. Such a smart woman, she is, to have such a lack (or be afraid of) insight.
Quote: She said, "I wish you knew that I loved you."
"I don't think you believe it," she said.
HD,
She is wondering and questioning how much you love her. She's been testing your uncondtional love for her.
You did a great job of holding on to yourself, defending your POV, setting limits and staying strong. I am proud of the Dog. But this is where you typically go astray...you get drained by these convos and go back to the old, comfortable, easier way. Make that appt with the MC NOW!!!
Great job of HOY, HD! I'm sorry for the current pain. She really seems to be twisting in the wind.
When I read her comments about wishing you knew she loved you and not thinking you believed it, I said out loud to the 'puter what I was hoping you answered. "I believe you love me. I just don't FEEL loved."
He did sort of bring up the same topic in our convo yesterday. He suggested that if we had a trial separation, I might come to realize that I could get by with less sex, but then he indicated that he knew that this was an unreasonable expectation and he added that he would be able to tell if I was just pretending to not want to have sex because I'm not a very good actress. 