Ask her "So you'd rather pursue a divorce than agree to a sex life with me?"
Let her know that this is ALL HER DOING.
I think that the advice about fighting for her is good, but I also think she needs to hear that a condition for continuing the marriage is a sex life. Period.
HD wrote to annette: ------------------ I'm trying to figure out how an agreement to reasonable visitation (something which a court would probably order anyway) is "giving up."
Yeah, I can tell her that I'll fight for her and for DD3, but what she wants me to do is give up my hope for a sex life. Some fight. ------------------
Come, on HD. Talk to me or tell me to pi$$ off.
You can't think forward for your wife, regardless of how well you know her.
I am going to tell you something about yourself. You already know it, and my telling it will probably make you mad. If I didn't think it vital for your marriage, and I didn't like you, I would ignore it.
The same way you are avoiding me while I am all in your 'face', is the same thing that is causing a train wreck in your marriage.
Your wife needs your strength, regardless of the outcome. YOU need to exercise your strength because it will address issues for yourself in this marriage, or potentially in a future one.
You are good guy. You can have a good marriage if you want to.
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
I honestly don't think she wants a divorce, nor do I think she really wants you to give up on her. She doesn't want to face it that living like boother/sister really is not right. But I don't think she really knows herself why she has become the way she is, but at the same time she is really really scared to face that. Lets face it, its really hard to change. change is not easy. Nor will it be easy on your part either.
Annette who just has a feeling that your W really does want to save the marriage, but is scared.
I'm wondering why she keeps asking if you'll fight her. Why doesn't she just file and find out? She knows better than most that the court would probably order visitation rights. What would the fight be about? Sole custody?
I wonder whether this is a REAL threat or just "sabre rattling".
She is continuing the fight because it is a variation on this morning's theme of "do you love me?"
She wants to know if he loves her or sex.
She is trying to force him to choose.
It is truly tragic that she can't see that these things are not mutually exclusive.
Hairy, How about this. You call her and say, Wife you are trying to make me choose between YOU and a SEX LIFE.
Here is my choice: I want YOU AND A SEX LIFE. What do you say to that?
Oh and btw, I still have to ask my H "what do you say to that" in order to get him to definitively answer my questions. Otherwise he will answer it with another question, or ignore it altogether. You may have to employ this tactic (or my other favorite "you didn't answer my question") in order to get her to stay on topic.
I think you holding back saying "yes, I will fight you for our daughter," is a good response for phone talk. She needs to see your face and look you in the eye when you tell her that you will fight for your family (if that is what you intend to do).
Let's prepare for your arrival at home tonight.
This is going to be a toughie, but you, first and foremost, must keep a grip on your emotions. Getting angry or hurt during the 'sh!t hitting the fan' stage only spreads the sh!t further. We need to contain, contain, contain. It's going to fly, has already started... so... that's that.
Try to keep the topic on the MC, not on divorce. If she starts throwing around the D word, this is emotional assault on her part. You get your day in court with the MC, and I'd suggest, if your counselor does not, having a one-on-one meeting with the both of you separately first before you go in for joint counseling.
At this point, try to stay away from sex talk. It is bound to come up, for she's going to throw it all over you. A great statement to this is: "our lack of sex is only the symptom of a much larger issue. That larger issue is my concern. I love you and I want you to stay. But I think we need help in resolving this."
Let her pick the counselor, HD. See and talk to the person first befor you scratch them off your list. It's hard to remain hopeful in a situation like this, but giving her the lead on this one is okay. It's not like you've been idle, just waiting for her to wake up and get a sex life. You've been reading book after book; you've been coming here; you've got a pretty firm handle on LD issues.
You are NOT walking into the Lion's Den blind.
Plus, you are a very intelligent man with lots of integrity and a great sense of humor.
You have one thing that you and your wife can agree on. MC. Keep the focus on that if you can. If things start escalating, say, "you know what. Let's not cause more damage to one another before we get to MC. We're both frustrated and angry and neither one of us feels heard. We've agreed to get help. Let's leave it there, for now."
Hey guys...been on the phone with her for the last hour. We finally agreed to try to find a counselor. Phew. It wasn't an easy agreement, either....we were both threatening to leave, accusing the other of yes, wanting a divorce more than wanting a sex life.
And no, Nopkins, I'm not ignoring you, in fact I'm taking it all in, and yes, fighting for my family.
I'm going to stick with the "it's time to get out," POV, if only because I'm the only one who feels this way, and I feel this POV should be represented.
At some point, hd, you have to ask yourself (and I'm sure you have) what does "saving the marriage" look like? At its BEST, how close did this marriage ever come to the R you want? I don't mean how close did it come to the R of your dreams, your fantasy R, but how close to a reasonably happy, practical, livable R? And how long did that period last?
What is the MOST that you can hope for if you decide to "save the marriage"? More years and years of negotiating? Your W doesn't have half the willingness of the most difficult partners on this board (my bf included). If you're like me, you're not getting any younger, and you'd like to be able to look forward to a reasonable amount of happiness before you die.
YOU CANNOT REASON WITH HER BECAUSE HER POINT OF VIEW IS NON-RATIONAL. IT COMES FROM A PLACE INSIDE HER THAT IS NOT ACCESSIBLE TO LOGIC AND REASON.
It comes from a feeling place, but she will not share her feelings and has made that place inaccessible, too.
I say the time for trying to figure out what she wants, where she's coming from, etc., is over. I think moving OUT is the only thing that will get her attention.
I agree that she's feeling the heat. Now's the time to turn on all the burners and let her call the fire department.
Edited to add: our posts crossed. By all means go to a counselor. But going to a C is the beginning of the struggle, not the end. The day an alcoholic goes to his first AA meeting is the beginning of the biggest battle of his life.
I'm reminded of a quote from Winston Churchill at a critical point in WWII: "This is not the end, or even the beginning of the end, but by the grace of God, it may be the end of the beginning."
