Quote: I've been pondering the "I'll keep saying no until you're comfortable with it" aspect of this.
I realized when I would be comfortable with it.
When I no longer gave a diddle-squat about the marriage or my relationship.
Yup. That's why I'm kind of worried about how comfortable I've been feeling lately. How did Janis put it "Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.". Yup.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
In my ponderings on Ms. Nop's answer to the "comfortable" comment (OMG...so obvious...why didn't I think of that BEFORE!), and in my most fusionistic way, I've imagined the following conversation: W: (after I roll over after being rebuffed), See? You just need to learn to be comfortable with me saying "no." H: I know exactly when I'll be comfortable with you saying no. W: When? H: When I don't give a sh!t about continuing the relationship with you. Then, I'll have no problem with it, because I won't really care about your refusal, or about ML with you, or being your husband any more, or even being around you. And I have to tell you, that time is definitely approaching. W: Well, then why don't we just get a divorce? H: Given the fact that you're not willing to work on loving me in the way I have told you I need to be loved, I think we might as well start that process. W: I knew it. You don't love me...you just love sex. It doesn't matter who you're with. Typical man. H: And that belief, which I have had to deal with our entire marriage, is why you will never know what love or marriage really means.
and on and on....
It never really happens the way we set it out here on the board, but I'd rather she just figure out that I'm worth a sh!t and that her life with me is better than a life without me, and worth the effort.
No, our conversations are never what we imagine they will be on the BB. I even had a fantasy that going to the C would result in the conversations going more like I imagined. Guess what. They don't. Why? I don't know. My H rarely responds as directly as I imagine he would to the direct question I ask. Instead he usually responds to the embedded emotion. Sometimes he just asks a question to my question. It sucks.
You sound down. Remember please that Mrs. HD's refusal to have sex does not diminish your self worth.
How about this, hd (your tone throughout should be very cool and kind, no matter what she says): W: (after I roll over after being rebuffed), See? You just need to learn to be comfortable with me saying "no." H: I know exactly when I'll be comfortable with you saying no. W: When is that? H: When I have stopped loving you and no longer care whether this marriage survives. W: Oh, so now you're threatening me! H: I wish I were threatening you. Unfortunately, what I'm doing is issuing a prediction. W: Well, if you feel that way, why don't we just get a divorce? H: Because I'm not there yet. I do still love you and I do still want our marriage to survive. W: All you care about is sex. You'd break up this marriage because I won't have sex with you every time you want! H: I'm not going to discuss this with you. But I assure you, one day I will cease to care whether we ever ML again. One that day, whether or not we ever divorce, our marriage will be dead, and there will be no going back. Watch me carefully, and you will see the signs when it has happened.
Whatever she says after this, do not reply. If you can't be silent, just keep saying very kindly, "I'm sorry, but I've said all I have to say on the subject."
Before I forget, thanks, Lillie, for that great re-framing of the convo.
You're not going to believe what happened last night. (No, I didn't get laid.)
I went to bed early. W came up about 20 minutes later and I was already drifting. W: You never say "I love you" anymore. H: Huh? W: I don't think you love me. You never tell me you love me anymore. H: Are you joking with me? W: No. H: Well, I will try to remember to say it more often. W: That's the problem...that you have to remember to say it more often.
And that's it. I woke up this morning and remembered it as I was taking a shower, and laughed out loud. How I wanted to tell her, "I'll start telling you I love you when you are comfortable with me NOT telling you I love you. Until then, you'll just have to KNOW that I love you."
Can anyone say "irony"?
And then I thought, "what if this is all some sort of test, some sort of trap?" Like, she's trying to make a point. Then, I suppose, I would be angry at her for 1) lying to me when I asked her if she was joking with me; 2) comparing her fake complaint with my very real complaint.
Can anyone say "overanalyzing"? Actually, as you all well know, you can never overanalyze when dealing with Ms.Hdog.
I'm just really spinning this morning. Part of me is amused that she is genuinely upset about this, part of me is disgusted with myself becaused I'm amused at some pain that my loved one is enduring, part of me is anxious to show her the irony of her complaint, part of me is suspicious that it's all a trap. And yes, part of me wants to hold her, kiss her, tell her I love her. And, as always, part of me wants to boink her (some things never change).
The part of me that wants to kiss her and tell her I love her is very aware of recent words of advice on this board about my over-tolerance, and my need to assert myself and not seem weak.
---- several minutes later --------
She just called. This is gonna be a long post. She asked me about the "love you" thing, and said that either I wasn't saying it because I didn't love her, because I loved her but just didn't say it very often, or because I was trying to make a point by not saying it until she started ML with me. I told her it was the 2nd one, that I had decided well over a year ago that my saying "I love you" at the end of every conversation was minimizing its importance. Fine.
BUT, then I said,
H: It went through my mind to say to you 'I'll tell you I love you when you're comfortable with me NOT saying I love you. W: That would be pretty crappy. H: Yeah. But similar in logic to your statement to me. W: Not similar at all. ML is like a 10, and saying ILY is like a 1. (I think she was talking about significance of the act, but I'm not sure).
She went on to talk about how I need to be comfortable with her saying no.... And, I just happened to have Lillie's post on my pc. I told her just what it said.
She did not react well, although her reaction was as I expected...talked about moving, divorce, etc.
She really twisted my words around...she does this very subtly at first. She said that she felt that sex was more important to me than love, when she would turn me down early in the relationship, and I would act like a "hurt little boy." I don't know exactly when I acted like this, but I'm assuming it's her perception of how I acted when a month or two had gone by with no action. And damn it, I probably was a little pissed when this happened...especially after I felt committed (trapped) in the relationship.
So she asked if I would ever feel comfortable if she said no. I told her that, if we were having sex on a regular basis, i.e. once a week, and two weeks had gone by without, and I initiated to get turned away by her, that yes, I might feel uncomfortable. I said this in the context of life as we know it. She then began to twist, saying that then she would never be able to say no without me being pissy about it, even if we were having sex once a week. I kept on trying to bring her back to the statement I had made.
I did suggest the Once a week schedule again, as a tool to begin to feel comfortable with each other again, and she poo-pooed it, saying she didn't need a schedule, that she would have sex when she felt like it. I asked her, "If you don't like once a week, what would you suggest?" She went back to "when I feel like it....I don't need or want a schedule. I'm not a Stepford Wife."
By the end of the conversation, she was saying that we should just end it now, as she would never be able to live up to my expectations. I said, I think we can work on this, but that I didn't think she was willing to put in the effort to do so.
The convo ended pretty abruptly when she had to take care of DD3.
So you're supposed to remember to say I love you, simply because it makes her feel loved and secure but she does not have to remember to ML to you because then she would be acting like a Stepford Wife.
Very good that you said what Lillie said in her post. Perfect...and true. She is very controlling...even her telling you her "scale" of "love" and "ML" was all about her. Not about you at all, only the importance of it all in her world. Stay strong, don't back down now. The most important part is you were truthful with her...I would not bring it up and see if she does, cause it is bothering her. She wants you to show her love, the kind SHE needs (verbal), but she does not want to return what is it important to you, that being intimacy. She's digging her heels in again.
I actually don't think her love language is "words of affirmation." She told me that she had noticed a week ago that I hadn't been saying "I love you" to her. (BTW, I do say it to her...more than she deserves). So, for the past week, she has not said it to me to TEST whether I would say it to her. Apparently, I failed the test.
We also argued about what "in love" is all about. She says that surveys say that the "in love" feeling lasts for 18 months (WTF?...who does a survey like that?) I said that there is an element of a marriage that makes it different from any other relationship, and that the ingredient is missing in our relationship. I said it was physical and emotional intimacy. She said...get this...that she is physically and emotionally intimate with her mom and her sister...
H: You're physically intimate with your mom? W: I like to snuggle with her. H: Do you like to snuggle with her in the nude? W: Of course not...although she did want to give me a breast exam the other week (her mom is an RN and W had a questionable mammogram which turned out okay) H: Do you know the difference between a breast exam and loving fondling of a breast? W: Of course. H: Do you ever kiss your mom and sister with open mouth, with tongue? W: No. H: We are missing the physical and emotional closeness that should come with a marriage.
She said that it was a myth...that most marriages are more like the brother/sister relationships. I said that was bunk.
By the way, I did a good job of HOM during the convo, unlike the one last Sunday.
It sounds to me like you finally spoke up and told her what was what. Next time it comes up, why not ask her WHEN she plans on working WITH you to correct the problems. There is some reason she wants to put all the "blame" for the problems in the marriage on you and you alone. She clearly is digging her heels in. Now that you have confronted her about it, don't let her put everything on you. I have a feeling this is the crossroads and if you sit back and let it go it all might just slip away.
Seems to me she is also worried about what will happen otherwise why would she have brought that up to you, about not saying ILY? I seem to remember you saying she says or feels every man in her life leaves her and will ultimately say you left her too. She clearly doesn't see how she has pushed you away which will ultimately end in you leaving at which time she can say......... see I told you, everyone leaves me. Somehow you have to make her realise what she is doing.
Hairy, I used to get caught up in the "most marriages" bunk too, until I realized that I could effectively shut that argument down by saying, "I don't care what other people do in their marriage--I'm telling you what it takes for ME to feel happy."
He still argued for a quite a few months but he eventually stopped.
