I was afraid something like this would happen. . Let me suggest a different tack for you.
I have over the last several months been trying to elicit from my W some information regarding what she would need to have a sexual relationship with me. Finally the other day, she said, "I like it in the morning." Now the morning is fraught with danger (I'm still the guy who sleeps with the kids) but I decided to take my W's words to heart.
Yesterday morning I shooed the kids out of the room once they woke up (not a trivial task!) I snuggled up to W and we went to sleep for a few minutes. Then I started to snuggle up from behind. She then made some sympathetic vibrations and before long we had a nice, if somewhat short, LM session (that's #3 but who's counting?)
I firmly believe that there are conditions that would cause your W to ML to you, and maybe she doesn't even know what they are. Remember how she was suggestive in Wisc? If dog and baby hadn't gotten in the way, you might have had a very nice squeeze right then and there.
When she says, "You always get aroused when you touch me," you should believe that SHE believes it, even if it isn't true. My W had a similar feeling. Even now, if I kiss her, she asks, "What's wrong with you?" But I get the desired result when it counts. It might be good to be affectionate at time when it is not within the realm of possibility that you could ML in the near future.
I think I'm going to have to disagree with you, Paul. I have asked her many times what it would take for her to have a sexual relationship with me. She has said: 1) you have to be comfortable with me saying "no", 2) if I just relax, it will happen, 3) if she didn't have to "deal" with my ex-wife, it would happen, so she suggests moving away from my kids, etc. The other response, when I ask what SHE is doing toward getting more comfortable with being sexual with me, is that she is "working on it." Just vague enough to be worthless and off-putting.
No, Paul, I think I need to be a ball-buster, just like she is.
I am very happy for you that you seem to be meeting some measure of success. Keep it up, my friend.
Got a question for you...when your W says she's "working on it". Do you ever tell her that's not an answer to your question? That, it's far too vague an answer to be an answer?
I've learned with my H that there are many times I have to call him on the carpet so-to-speak about his answers to my questions. He often retreats to the safe answer zone as I refer to it, or the non-committal answers. Her "working on it" response falls right into those categories. "Working on it?"....working on what exactly?
I used to ask my H to tell me what he likes in bed (to attempt to arouse him)...he always said "I don't know...I like everything you've been doing." Gee, now that's helpful. Finally, one day I asked him that same question outside of the bedroom, just during a conversation we were having. I got the same "I don't know"....but this time he added "as I learn what I like I'll tell you." This gave me the perfect opening to encourage "scheduled sex"...because I was able to say..."if we don't ML how will you learn what you like in order to tell me?" He couldn't argue with that; now we are having sex weekly (well pretty much weekly) LOL. I've got to tell you...since we've instituted that things are improving steadily for us.
I've learned (with my H anyway) to tell him..."that's not an answer to what I asked" when he'd give me those vague answers. When I first started doing that it made my H very uncomfortable naturally...I was challenging him to get out of his safe zone. But I've learned to tell him things like..."if you don't know the answer right this second, think about it and we can talk about it tomorrow night (if I left it up to him to pick the time to get back to me, he wouldn't.)" That way he knows he either needs to talk to me right now, honestly...or we're going to revisit it again tomorrow (or whatever date/time I chose). Either way...he's going to have to address the issue with me....and, I'm not being unreasonable with him. I'm willing to give him the time/space to think about the issue if he needs it.
I don't know if this approach would work with your W or not, but I've consistently been using this approach over the last six months. My H is now talking to me more openly whenever an issue is broached...he doesn't avoid discussions with me nearly as often...and he's becoming much less uncomfortable discussing anything with me.
Granted, we have a long way to go to get to the SR I'd like to have. But there are a few things I've learned for sure over the last 12 months, I try to keep these things in mind and they've really helped me.
#1 If you don't consistently (that's the key word) communicate your needs clearly (no euphamisms or sugar-coating to avoid hurt feelings) to your spouse you won't get what you want. #2 Expect to have to communicate what you want clearly to your spouse over and over again. It often takes reiterating what you want in the above fashion for your spouse to really hear you and take you seriously. #3 Learn to recognize, affirm, and support any changes towards the positive your spouse may be attempting to make no matter how small. (This has been a BIG help to me for getting through the tough, discouraging, set-back periods.) #4 Expect that this is not going to be easy. There will be up's & down's...roll with the punches.
Sorry to make this so long, just felt inspired to let it out I guess
I feel for 'ya, man. I've tried a dozen times to have "The Talk" and I get even less of an answer than you get. The sex I do have with my W is very detached. It could be that she is imagining she is with someone other than me . I have faith that we will make strides toward real intimacy.
I have changed myself into a more tender, thoughful-acting person. That, coupled with the occasional tantrum, has led to results. Your W has responded negatively to the idea of discussion of sexual issues. She may respond positively to random hugs and kisses if she does not feel that they must lead to sex.
I'm still thinking that your W is changing for the better.
Paul, a man who doesn't have all the answers, just the right ones.
Thanks for you thoughtful reply, GEL. I have asked her this before, and she has responded be saying that she tries to have "sexy thoughts." That's about it. I think the last time I asked her about it was maybe 6 months ago. We all know what she's doing to "work on it." She's avoiding it, putting me off, and, when confronted, she blames me for her lack of interest.
I totally agree with you that I need to nail her down on the specifics: what she's doing to work on it; what specifically she plans to do to remedy a situation that, short of forcible rape, I can do nothing about; and when she plans to do these things.
Last night she came home late (I didn't ask her why). I had given DD3 a bath, for which W thanked me. We watched "24" together, sitting side by side on our couch in our new furniture arrangement. Went to bed at 10. Nothing particularly noteworthy. Honestly, I chose not to confront her on anything because I really wanted to catch the 2-hour episode of my favorite TV show! And, after it was over, I was kind of wrung out, as I usually am after watching it.
I completely understand...last night I probably could have confronted my H about not following through (he put me off Sun night and said we'd ML last night), but I chose not to at that time. I had a feeling I would be put off (he works nights every 4-wks and comes home at 11:30pm so I'm usually asleep by the time he gets home.) Why didn't I confront him? My feelings were too hurt, and when I'm emotional I tend to lose my point during discussions...I'll save that for this weekend probably (if he tries to put me off again...but I won't let it go for long). If however he doesn't put me off again, then I'll let it go. I mean, he's bound to revert back to old behaviors from time-to-time, it's only reasonable to figure on that. That's why during times like this I concentrate on the fact that he's communicating better/more openly with me.
I'm quite sure that I couldn't be expected to change my sexual behavior overnight without stumbling...so I can't expect him not to stumble either. Sometimes I find I have to backoff of the SR part and concentrate on the area of communication...if I do that I find the other rolls back around. It's soooo easy when you're lacking in the sexual part of your R to get tunnel vision to the point that there's simply too much pressure in that area.
When you do choose to have your next discussion with your W you may try letting her know that you'd like to know more specifically what it is that she's working on in order to help support her efforts. I've explained to my H that if I have an idea of what he's doing then it's easier for me to backoff and let him work on his own things, in his own way...because then I have the comfort of knowing that yes, it's important to him, and yes, he's actively working on the issue...not avoiding it which for me is the ultimate frustration & rejection.
Good luck with your discussion...they're never fun...but they can get easier.
Quote: Honestly, I chose not to confront her on anything because I really wanted to catch the 2-hour episode of my favorite TV show!
This is very interesting to me since I believe my H chose not to initiate sex with me last night because he too was watching the 2-hour episode of 24. Clearly, there is a direct relationship between TV and low sexual activity.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I have to agree with the relationship to TV and LD
My H watches TV all the time, every single evening/night and has it on 24/7. It drives me wacko. I have talked to him about this and he simply refuses to turn it off. I have on occasion gone into the other room and turned music on and purposely turned it up. Maybe that was being nasty, but I sometimes get really wacked out cause of the TV on all the time. I have actually gotten him to eat dinner, and sometimes breakfast on the weekends, at the dining room table, but he always chooses the chair on the other side so he can still see the TV
Ditto on the amount of tv having an inverse correlation to the amount of nookie. H "needs the tv to relax" in the evening. However, his "relaxation" doesn't lead to sex. H recently acknowedged that it is easier on vacation. He says it is also easier on weekends. The day that we ML at least twice every weekend I will believe that.
Just like I will believe Mrs. HD the day that your consistent "good behavior" of not initiating, not sighing when turned down, having ex Mrs out of town on vacation etc... causes Mrs. HD to initiate sex. In other words, I'm sure her conditions have been met at various times more than the twice/year that sex occurs in the HH. What does she say about that?
Dog, I know I'm coming in late here, but have to address her statement that no one else would put up with your ex wife or love your children like she does.
This is not what the vows said, were they? Granted you have an exwife, and kids-- they are part of the package. But she promised to love and honor and forgive (or something) YOU.
This a a diversionary tactic, and one you should call her on. Most men your age have an ex-- so women who are interested in men your age know they will deal with an ex. Children are by nature lovable, even the ones who act like monsters on occasion. I'd take offense at her having a low estimate for people in general being able to treat your children lovingly.
Even if your ex is a shrew, and your kids can be difficult, there are many women who would feel quite fortified for those challenges by regular, good sex. (speaking for myself, my tolerance for life's quirks is almost infinite when I am sexually satisfied.)
I'd say, DO NOT let her divert your attention from the core issue. You are talking about a huge void in a marital relationship, not her diplomacy skills with ex wife, or her step parenting approach.
. Let me suggest a different tack for you. 
