Quote: She told me, predictably, that I have to be comfortable with her saying "no." I told her that I have demonstrated that I am comfortable with this, but that I would probably do a better job if she said "yes" once in a while. ... She said that even though I thought I was comfortable with her saying 'no', I wasn't REALLY comfortable with it.
Comfortable? What exactly what would comfortable look like? Somehow you have been maneuvered into an impossible position where she assumes she gets to tell you "no" until you respond (for an indefinite amount of time) with a specific attitude (comfortable) and you're stuck trying to pass an undefined test.
Are there any other areas of your relationship where she gets to be the schoolmarm and you're placed in the recalcitrant schoolboy position? If so, I wonder if you shouldn't immediately "graduate" and remove yourself from that position. She's not your teacher, HD. And if she has placed (or you have allowed) her that position in other areas, you need to "fire" her.
I'm a big proponent of write first, discuss later. Writing gives you the opportunity to marshall your thoughts & feelings and present them in an orderly & complete manner. Conversations, especially well-worn ones, invariably end up incomplete as the participants give chase to some semi-unrelated rabbity issue only to look up and discover that they're miles away from the original issue.
Furthermore, you are going to have to make some basic changes in your interaction with your wife.
Step one, regain control of your finances. If you haven't already, setup a joint account, but separate your individual moneys.
Step two, get serious about the situation. I am not saying, "get mean", just serious. This is the "somber" state that MrsNOP spoke about in a post to you a while back.
Write your thoughts if you like. Keep it simple. Whenever she comes back at you with philosophy or other babble (and I mean babble, not real issues), then point her back to the simple request.
HD: "I can not continue in this relationship in its current state with a complete absence of sex. I need to know specifically when you intend to correct this situation."
HDW: "If you will just respect my saying no, we will get around to it."
HD: "Give me a specific date when you will get around to it, and specifics on the frequency thereafter."
HDW: "Well I just [insert babble objections here]"
HD: "I can not continue in this relationship in its current state with a complete absence of sex. I need to know specifically when you intend to correct this situation."
Step three, stop doing the 'feel good' extra stuff. Limit your participation with your wife to basic maintenance of the family. That is mostly children. NO TOUCHY, FEELY, GRABBY.
When queried as to why you are being distant, you answer "I can not continue in this relationship in its current state with a complete absence of sex. I need to know specifically when you intend to correct this situation".
Hairdog, your wife MUST UNDERSTAND that SHE is the responsible party here. The stalemate must be broken by her, BY HER INITIATION, not yours.
That doesn't mean that she doesn't have legitimate issues with you, but for now, they are less important than the basic life of the relationship.
What you must understand is that you are a conflict avoider. What that means for your relationship is that avoiding putting your situation back right, until the last minute, will find you with little left to give.
That means that your chances for recovering your relationship are diminishing with each day that passes while your situation remains in stasis.
As a conflict avoider, you must step out before you are comfortable and see to the needs of your relationship. Consider it a child. Your child is standing in the crib with a soiled diaper, screaming with hunger. When are you going to take action?
The simple truth IS what you are telling your wife. The TRUTH is that the relationship IS going to fail if it isn't repaired. It isn't a game you are playing with her.
You are an intelligent man, HD. You know good and well I am feeding you the truth.
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
I am going to be a friend and give you a shot of "ball tonic".
I am not an uniquely HD or caring woman. If I were single and living in the state of Missouri, I would certainly go out with you, I would probably have sex with you if the chemistry was right (and it would probably be fantastic) and if I were involved in a long-term relationship with you I would try to be civil to your ex-wife and loving towards your children.
You are in a Win-Win situation. If you confront your W, either you will start having sex with your W or you will be able to find a woman who will have sex with you and meet your other basic requirements. The only thing that is keeping you in a Lose-Lose situation is the fact that you are a wimp.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I'd like to chime in here. I do not anticipate sex. The thought that my H is expecting sex at a certain time fills me with anxiety. Anxiety is not conducive to horniness. Ya'll know what I am talking about; birthdays, holidays, anniversaries, arranged sex dates. The proper response to thoughts of sex with your lover should be pleasure and anticipation, I understand this. But, for me, it just doesn't happen that way. If I am the one doing the planning and "ambush" H, I enjoy it immensely (I'm sure he does too). If he is the one doing the initiating, the anxiety gets quite intense. This anxiety has little to do with what H does or doesn't do, it's an old response that I don't have any more control over than I do the blood flow in my veins. I know it's probably a power thing, but I need that power to keep being sexual with him. I didn't have the power to choose my sexual history, I want it now. I am choosing when, where, and how I have sex. Do you think asking for no initiation is too high a price to pay for regular sex? I know this seems like a gross imbalance of power in our M, but as time goes on and we both sexually mature, then the balance can be restored. I can at some point begin to accept and enjoy his initiation.
Maybe asking MrsHD what thought processes are at work and what kinds of physical reactions are taking place when you touch her might give you some insight as to why she keeps putting you off. If she believes that you will take such information and use it constructively, then she may feel safe telling you.
I don't mind the sun sometime
The images it shows
I can taste you on my lips
And smell you in my clothes
Cinnamon and Sugar
And softly spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through someone elses eyes
BHS-"Pepper"
Hairdog wrote {{I didn't bring up the once-a-week schedule, or me moving downstairs, and I WANT to bring this up. I'm tempted to do it in writing. I know, wuss's way out. I just get so damned emotional when I try to talk to her about this. It's really one of those role-reversal things, where the man gets all weepy and the woman is rock solid.}}
Hairdog, what is her e-mail address? I will tell her, the guys on the male support / "Loving But Frustrated Husbands" chat line have voted you men of the week.
Her {{ And you ALWAYS get aroused when you touch me...which is why I usually don't let you touch me}} Is the same as going in a restruant and ordering coffee and the waitredd saying you could have coffee but because you asked for it you can't have coffee. Your W did say she wants to make you happy, didn't she? There is a TV commercial something like this. Everything the people order the waitress tells them it is not available.
Take s sheet of paper and write your preferences (fore play, frequency ( 1X a month to 1x a week), positions, acts, starting date) on the top half, draw a line across the middle of the page. Below the line ask your W to do the same. Tell her this is an academic only experiment. I know, she will say you are baiting her.
{{ And you ALWAYS get aroused when you touch me...which is why I usually don't let you touch me}} Tell her tyouching her is nice but not enough to get you through a marriage.
HD, disregard my offer if you want. I see your W as a super controller that needs to have some of her manipulative behaviors challanged.
About your xW, your current W should not have to put up with her crap. How much time does your xW consume or take away from your current M?
OG Lou. Kind of a woos myself sometimes. Learning to say the truth and know I can weather the storm and be happy.
Thanks for all the replies so far. Thanks, especially to Jenny for the ego boost! And Nopkins, I know I need to just stop wading in her bullsh!t, and keep ON MESSAGE. I've been so busy this morning that I haven't had a lot of time to reply.
I know it's not going to get any better unless I do something.
There is no reason to believe that that is the "best you can do" with regards to a spouse. I doubt she herself believes that, and if she does she is quite the risk taker, isn't she.
Hang in there and keep working it thru in your mind until you find a way to present it to her that is so clear and concise that even she can't twist it to suit her needs. Whether that is in writing or in person, who cares. Just as long as you get through to her, and the sooner the better.
From my experience, you will likely have to say it in a way that sounds mean, or "feels" mean. Any other way and your message will be confusing and diluted. She will be thinking, "There's all this flowery stuff but then a line about ending the marriage if it doesn't change. Hmph, I guess he thinks he will threaten me..." She won't see it for the truth if it is disguised with too much "I love you but.." statements. Stick with what you know to be true about yourself and go light on the mush. When she has heard your true message, then you can incorporate more of the mush back in. I think it is hard to wrap your mind around the concept of "I love you with all my heart but I will leave you nonetheless if things don't change." Something seems incongruous about that statement but it's the truth, huh?
Your W does what she does because she can and thinks she has the control...and is fighting to keep it. She will be a tough nut to crack...and some nuts don't. Hate to say that, but my sister was the same way and she would not budge. She isn't married any more by the way. By the time he left her, she begged saying she knew she was at fault and would change...but he didn't care anymore. I know many people who work with their spouses to meet common ground...it is the only way a marriage will work in the long run. But she seems awfully determined to not like sex...I think she needs thorough counseling on her own to find out why she needs to convey the message so loudly that she doesn't want to want sex. She is not special because she is good to your kids and it does not take the place of physical intimacy between two young people. But she knows you are not going to push it...and don't know if she will change even if you do.
Hey, fella. Well, we are both in the midst of some rather fine shitolla, aren't we?
K. When she brings up how there will be 'no one who loves the kids and tolerates your ex-wife like I do,' you look her in the eye and say, "our kids and my ex-wife are not the issue. We can talk about that later if you wish. Let us get back to the issue at hand, which is "I can not continue in this relationship in its current state with a complete absence of sex. I need to know specifically what you intend to do WITH ME, and WHEN you intend to do it, to correct this situation." (If you dump it all in her lap she'll just get pissed and you'll get nowhere.)
In your letter, or however you communicate, impress upon her in no uncertain terms, that your M is at crisis point. Tell her this is not a threat, this is a very real situation and you are trying your best to impress upon the seriousness of the situation. THIS IS NOT A TEST, BUT A MESSAGE FROM THE EMERGENCY BROADCAST SYSTEM. YOU ARE BEING INSTRUCTED WHERE TO TUNE FOR FURTHER INFORMATION. REPEAT. THIS IS NOT A TEST.
Corri, who is utterly shocked that I can be reomtely humorous today.
