It's amazing the parallels between us. I actually found myself yesterday saying that I want to leave as a result of our lack of intimacy. Her immediate response was to start talking about moving to a larger house, albeit in the same neighborhood. Anything to change the subject.
Also, W found me at the computer a couple times this past week, while I was checking out the posts here. She asked me what I was doing and I said, "Oh, nothing." I will eventually tell her vaguely what I am doing, but for now I'll keep her guessing.
We are addicted to our sans-intimacy marriages, not the SSM board. The Board merely encourages us not to put up with too much crap. I loved the quote, "You get what you put up with."
Paul: Your mention of the "larger house" struck home. It seems my W is always looking for something outside of our situation to make her life better, e.g., a house in the country, a home in Wisconsin, as if those are solutions to all of our problems. When I present to her the problems I am having with our lack of intimacy, she dismisses these as unimportant, something I need to get over, something with which she can't help me, or something she is "working on" in some invisible way.
I am trying to work on the infrastructure of our relationship, and she is working on improving the location or the appearance. HP can relate here...Missouri is not the best place to live in the world, but thousands of people manage to do it every year. Sure, we have yucky, icy winters; the threat of tornadoes in the spring; hot and humid summers. But even paradise has tsunamis. If we move, we will have a whole set of different problems, and we will still have the relationship difficulties we face here.
Y'all are right. I just need to sit her down and tell her that I can't currently envision a future for us.
Quote: How can I plan to buy property with her 5-10 years down the road when I have a problem envisioning us together this time next year?
I don't think her denial about the problems in your relationship necessarily is directly related to any wimpyness that is keeping you from directly expressing your dissatisfaction repeatedly. After all, I used to cry like a baby on a semi-regular basis when my H rejected me and yet he has said that he didn't know there was anything wrong with our relationship until I finally took a stand. I think it's much more effective to "walk the walk" in some concrete way than to "talk the talk". For instance, if you were to initiate sex and she rejected you, IMO it would be much more effective to simply put on your coat and calmly say "I'm going to the bar." than to spend a couple hours talking about your need for physical intimacy in your relationship.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
My wife's favorite is "I just need to get away from here," meaning a vacation. I always point out that her problems and issues will only be waiting for her upon her return, but the "escape fantasy" is usually how she deals with her stressful situations.
Welcome back and a few comments while we wait for Corri to weigh in:
I was surprised to read about your W's sexual overture that day. It shows you that the issue is on her mind. The fact that she couldn't follow through is something she is wrestling with right now. On some level she knows she messed up and wants to assure that you will not abandon her...thus, the talk about moving in 5-10 yrs from now. She really doesn't want to examine what went wrong sexually for her that nite, to the point of emailing info on WI( what is the big rush). I am not sure what you should say, but you do need to let her know you see through her maneuvering, you don't want to abandon her, but the sex issue needs to be confronted.
I think it's good you didn't start this dialogue in the car; she is such a good arguer and can twist and turn things in such a way that nothing productive comes of it. I now only initiate relationship talks with my H when I have given things some thought and know what essential points I want to make. I don't go round and round in circles anymore.
My advice is to get in your mind exactly what you want expressed no matter what her reaction. It will make you feel better about yourself.
I agree with you that Hairdog needs to have "The Convo" with the W, but in HD's defense, he HAS been honest with her. Not too long ago he did tell her that he wasn't going to stay in a celibate marriage forever. He even refers to that comment in the first post on this thread. So, he's a little further along than he thinks he is.
Hairpup, listen up. You have a perfect opener with W's latest email to you. You told all of us that if no sex happened on your vacation in Wisc., you were moving to the basement. Not that I think you should do that this instance or anything, that is solely up to you.
But a simple statement like the one you made: "I don't know if I see myself in Wisconsin in 5-10 years when I can't even see me in the marriage a year from now..." is a nice segway to some major shakeups in the HD household.
It's scary, so I don't want to push you in any way. You'll take action when you are ready. Don't do it a second before. You understand boundaires and you understand Mu... when the final straw falls -- and you will KNOW when that happens -- you'll be prepared.
Thanks for chiming in IHJ. I too, wait for Corri's anticipated reaming.
The "overture" was so . . . .subtle, yet, by its very rarity it really was quite remarkable. Let's look at it a bit closer, though. She made it in the middle of a restaurant, while DD3 was with us, and before a 25-30 minute drive home. The hint that something sexy was coming was given in a setting in which carrying out something sexy would have been an impossibility. Granted, I had ZERO expectations that anything was actually going to happen, but it still pissed me off a bit that she went to bed almost immediately upon our arrival, leaving me to contend with DD3, dogs, my libido, and my feelings all by myself.
Last night, W got home to find a letter from her a-hole father taking her to task for not buying a Christmas present for her half-sister. It was a conscious choice by my W, because the sister, 21, has never bought her anything, never calls, never writes, never writes thank you notes, says about 2 words to her when she sees her, and is basically a non-entity in her life, although W has tried many times to bridge the gap. FiL told W in the letter to just stop exchanging gifts, not only to half-sis, but also to him, and to his wife (W's step-mom). I'm telling y'all this to just set a background to why I didn't confront her...instead, I was a comforting, loving hubby. Told her that her dad was a jerk, and validated her belief that, no matter what she does, it is never enough for him, that he is always looking for a reason to disapprove of the things she does.
So then, when we go to bed, she reaches over and starts feeling the side of my shorts. I jump...because it just plain tickles. She laughs. She asks if they're new shorts...nope. She says they feel nice. Understand, she's just feeling the side, kind of by my hip bone, but being the guy I am, I come to attention. Ten-Hut. No more ticklish feeling. She stops.
H: Why did you stop? W: I didn't want to get you all excited. H: Uh, too late. W: Really? Just from touching the side of your shorts? H: Yep. W: Huh.
So I roll over and give her a kiss and start to playfully climb on top of her and she basically balls up and says "NO...now just calm down. You have to be patient!"
BAM....I am back in "no pressure" zone. I am wresting with telling her what a bitch/prick tease she is, telling her I see no future, and, on the other hand, still realizing that she is vulnerable as a result of this hateful letter from her father and I should cut her some slack. The slack-cutter part wins out, and I roll over and go to sleep.
This morning I'm thinking that she touched me to show that she loves me, that she is "trying" to be more intimate, and that I should appreciate the little scraps she is throwing my way. And then, the other voice is telling me that she is just teasing me to prove that I can't just be touched, that I am always just this MAN who has an UNQUENCHABLE sex drive and can't be trusted with even the most subtle touch.
f*ck f*ck f*ck
We all know this is building up to a climax (just not the "good" kind).
Poor HD . I got frustrated for you reading your post.
I have to say that I don't think either of your theories is quite right. I think your W feels like she has to be in a very, very safe place before she can relax sexually. However, I don't think you should let this fact alter your behavior. You shouldn't try to make her feel super-safe in order to get her to feel sexual. She has to figure out how to be brave enough to allow herself to be sexual even if she doesn't feel completely emotionally "safe".
Everybody has the need to feel somewhat emotionally "safe" in order to express their sexuality. Some of us are capable of a higher level of risk-taking in this area. For instance, I could go to a biker bar to get laid on my birthday, but this behavior would almost certainly require a certain amount of alcohol and false bravado. I wouldn't be afraid of getting in a physically dangerous situation (though maybe I should be). I would be afraid of getting myself in an emotionally dangerous situation.
For some reason, your wife regards having sex with you as being as emotionally dangerous for her as "looking for Mr.Goodbar" would be for me, so she chickens out at the last minute even though she's tempted. Unless you're way more scary in person than you come across on this board, I can't imagine that you've done anything that should have put the average woman in this state. If she values your relationship enough, she is going to have to figure out how to deal with her not exactly irrational but certainly overblown fears of sex/intimacy on her own. In fact, you may be exacerbating the problem by allowing her to think that there is a "safe" celibate space that she can stay in. You have to make it clear to her that there are no completely safe choices she can make. Everyone is vulnerable to emotional pain whether they experience it by pursuing intimacy or by avoiding it.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
. I got frustrated for you reading your post.