I'm a HDW married to a LDM. I know this now - but if you had asked me what was wrong with my marriage last week, I would have just burst into tears and said "I don't know".
I haven't read TSSM yet as I ordered it the day before Christmas Eve. So bear with me on that point, I will be devouring the book as soon as the postman brings it, I assure you.
I just want to say up front that I love my husband very much. I can't conceive of my life without him. He is the kindest person I've ever met, he's smart and ambitious and a respected person in his field. We many not be wealthy, but he does very well by us - enough so that when I was given the chance to leave work to pursue a degree in another field, I took the offer with gratitude. He's behind me 100% on this and has not once complained about the cost or the loss of one income.
The thing is, during our 16-year marriage many times I've felt more like his best friend than his wife. We have the same sense of humor, we like pretty much the same things but we do each have our own hobbies and interests. It's not like we're completely joined at the hip in a bad way, not at all. We just are two people who click - and I know how fortunate I am in that.
In the beginning of our relationship, like most I guess, we had sex quite often. Once or more a day. I loved it, as I have always been high-desire myself, and I was as happy as could be. I found THE PERFECT GUY!
After the first year though, things began to drop off rather steeply. It went from once a day to a couple of times a week, then a month, and then finally in the last couple of years we had sex maybe 6 times a year. Last year we only had sex twice.
I have spent hours, weeks, *months* of my life searching inwardly trying to figure out what was wrong with me. Was I too ugly, too stupid, too boring? Not sexy enough? Not good enough in bed? Just not good enough _period_?
About five years ago I began to ask my husband to please tell me what I was doing wrong, or wasn't doing right. His answer was invariably "nothing" or "I don't know". I begged him to not say this, but to say the truth, because it was cruel to have a problem with me sexually and not to tell me what it was, as obviously there was a problem since we simply weren't having sex anywhere near what we once had, and what I thought was "normal" (like, at least a couple times a month!).
Still, all he would say is "nothing" or "I don't know" and look at me with an expression which I just couldn't read. That bothered me almost as the sex, because it was one of the few times that I couldn't understand what he was trying to say, and couldn't get him to elaborate.
The idea of him masturbating and not making love to me was torture (though I have no idea if he masturbates regularly or not, or ever did - it was just the idea). I mean, it's hard to retain even a shred of sexual self-esteem when you belivee your man prefers to jack off to your willing partnership.
When he began to talk about his new boss at work - a woman - I wondered if he was having an affair with her. After all, the old adage says "If a man doesn't get it at home, he's getting it SOMEwhere".
As the sex dropped off, so did other things. The French kiss every day when he came home from work turned into a quick peck. No more backrubs, giving or receiving. No more showers together. No more lazy evenings in bed petting the cats or watching television. No more morning snuggle time.
The lack of sex or just the touch of my beloved's hand was just a crushing weight on my shoulders. And yet, he tells me every day that he loves me. He buys me gifts. We talk about anything - other than sex - all the time. We go places and do things. When we're in public he'll hold my hand, open doors for me, just be the perfect loving gentleman. And he's pretty much the same way at home (though he does seem to have selective vision and never see the kitchen trash can is full - he has to be reminded of that!).
I was so confused. And I felt so horrible about myself that all I could think of was that he had no interest in me whatsoever, but felt pity for me and that was why he was so nice. Which of course made me feel even more worthless.
About two months ago I came right out and said that I was feeling so horrible about myself because I didn't think that he loved or wanted me anymore because we rarely had sex or shared those special touches. I asked him one more time to please tell me what was wrong and how cruel it was to not give me a chance to fix whatever it was that was broken.
But he still couldn't say. He just looked at me in silence. Not a nasty silence, but a sad one. I left the conversation feeling that my marriage was dying, if not already dead, and in despair.
Last Thursday, the day before Christmas Eve, he was going in to work late and as he prepared to get going I was in the bedroom sorting laundry. I was thinking about what I wanted most for Christmas: my husband to sleep with me. And I began to cry and just couldn't stop. It just came out in huge floods.
My husband came running into the bedroom to ask me what was wrong and everything just came spilling out - the torturous scenes that ran through my mind, the wondering about affairs, the feeling like an ugly troll that he pitied enough to stay with even though he didn't love it or want it anymore. Plus also a desire that the Earth should just open up and swallow me whole because I had humiliated myself so much by saying these things that I didn't know how I would get through the day.
And then finally he told me something that I wish he had told me a long, long time ago. He said that he loved me, that he needed me and sometimes he really did want me, it's just that he "had never had much of a sex drive" and "I've always been that way". He sat down on the bed, took me in his arms and began to cry, too.
I was stunned, not really at the revelation as the fact that he had let me suffer (and knew I was suffering) for so many years thinking it was me. But that passed because then I thought of how FREAKIN' HARD it had been for me to say, essentially, "I want to make love to you but you don't want me". How much harder for a man to admit that sex isn't on his mind 24/7, since that's how ALL men are supposed to be?
He also admitted that he had avoided more intimacy with me because he was afraid that I would "get the wrong idea". I knew just what he meant, but it made me so incredibly sad.
So I made him a promise that if he would try to be closer to me, I would not bring up sex. At all. If he wanted touches and snuggling to go on from there, he could let it but I would not press him in any way. He agreed - and in the past week he has tried, I will give him credit for that. He puts his arm around me, he rubbed my shoulders at the dinner table, he hugged me while I was cooking. That in and of itself has made me happy both because I love the feel of his touch, but also that he really *is* trying and that means a lot to me.
Anyway, after we had our conversation I went on Google and looked for "men who have a low sex drive" and I found this site. When I was reading the first chapter of TSSM I actually felt tears running down my face because here were other women WHO WERE THINKING AND FEELING THE EXACT SAME THINGS AS ME. And that gave me hope. I ordered the book then and there.
As I explored the site I came across the message boards and have been reading those voraciously. THANK YOU to all of the others here who have posted so openly about their own SSMs. You may not realize how much it helps other people, but it does as I am a living example right here.
When TSSM arrives I am going to read it and then if I have to I will follow my husband around the house READING IT ALOUD if I have to! We are going to get through this. We can work on this. I feel now that we have the love, we just must get over the shame. A totally self-imposed shame, too.
I may be back here crying my eyes out again, but I am determined to make this work. If I have to do 99.9% of the work that is fine with me. If as a beginning I can just get him to be receptive to the idea that we can compromise on this and BOTH be happier with our lives, that is all I ask. We can work on the rest as we are able.
I know this was really long, but I also know this is the ONLY PLACE I have ever seen filled with people who have been there. Like the subject, all I can say is thank god I found this place.
Wish I (LDW) and my H (HD) would've found this place when you did. I love him so much but he needed the physical love to believe it. Now he did get it somewhere else.
citizen_cat wrote {{When TSSM arrives I am going to read it and then if I have to I will follow my husband around the house READING IT ALOUD if I have to!}}
Leigh, please do not do this! This will come across to your H as pushy, needy, desperat, I want, I want attitude from you. Read the book for yourself first.
During WWII, the British broke the German code. When the British read the German code that the Germans were sending a submarine to a certain location, the British did not send a destroyer to sink the German sub. Instead, the British just happened to send a search plane in the general area of the German sub.
The point of this story is, if you are too direct, your H may retreat. Read the book SSM and read Divorce Remedy. The 2 books will give you ammunition to change the R you have.
Read honeypots history by clicking on her name, then go to the bottom of her profile and click read posts by.
Have to to attend to other things that just poped up. Sorry.
Welcome to a place where you will find support and comfort and loads of good advice. I lived your marriage and have to say that you have expressed very well the feelings that stem from feeling rejected by someone you love so dearly.
I was 14 years into my marriage before my ex husband said the words, "I've just never thought sex was such a big deal." I finally had an answer and finally knew it wasn't me but something he carried inside himself. I made some HUGE mistakes after that revelation though, mistakes that I am sure were a big part of my ending up divorced. Stick with this forum, take these kind people's advice and use the book and you will not make the same mistakes.
Quote: How much harder for a man to admit that sex isn't on his mind 24/7, since that's how ALL men are supposed to be?
Good for you for being able to view it from his perspective and realizing that his feelings go against everything society tells him he is supposed to be feeling. I think of it this way and it helps me forgive my ex husband of all those years of pain...his shame and pain were so great that he allowed himself to stand by and watch someone he loved hurt. When someone is dealing with that level of shame in their own feelings it has to be excruciating for them and anyone else who is trying to love and maintain a relationship with them. What I'm trying to say is, you have both suffered. Now you can call it even and work at making some changes.
I agree with the other poster...do not show him the book. Make the book your own tool, use it as an instrument that can instruct you on how to make positive changes in yourself, which in turn, will motivate him to change.
Once my husband admitted to me that he had lived with a low sex drive I went after the problem with a vengence. I'm a problem solver and I was hell bent on findng a solution. I pushed my husband right out the door!!
Take it slow and easy, research, read and put to use the things you find out. My ex went to a urologist and was told he had no testosterone at all. No wonder he had no interest in sex! Instead of bringing up the idea of a Drs. visit to your husband do some online research to find out what foods help raise a man's testosterone levels. Do some research on Andropause and see if you can get info on any over the counter, dietary supplements he might could take. I know that peanuts are supposedly one food that will raise his levels but can't remember any other that that.
I get very excited when I read stories like yours. Stories that might have a happier ending than mine did. I don't come to these boards much any longer but I'm glad I checked in today. I wish you well and agree....knowing your husband is masturbating in defference to having sex with you is horrendous. Hopefully, with a little work, those days will be behind you. Cathy
Wow. I'm already overwhelmed with the responses. Thank you all so much. And I mean that.
I take the point about pushing the book. He knows I've ordered it, as I sent him a link to the first chapter that first day I found it. I emailed it to him so it woud be easier for him to "hear" and I put a note that "this validates what you said to me this morning" (that our lack of sex wasn't because he didn't love me) and that I thought reading this book could make both of us happier.
But you're all completely right, there is no such thing as *making* someone listen. Really listen, that is. Instead of the book's content, he will just hear "she's pressuring me again".
Just this bit of advice is invaluable. [takes deep breath]
Cathy47, you and I seem to be alike in that when I see a problem's solution (perhaps) on the horizon, I go after it! I just have to keep in mind that this is too delicate, and too important, to rush. My new mantra, I guess.
Thank you also for the dietary advice. I had read about low testosterone levels but knew that it would be almost impossible for my husband to aquiesce to a request to have this checked. Maybe later, but for now I can put my obsessive energy to get this fixed into this kind of research. I just feel like I have to be DOING SOMETHING, does that make sense? But I also have to be sensitive to his feelings. This seems like a good compromise.
By the way I looked for Honeypot's story and after clicking on "show all posts" the oldest posted were follow-ups, so perhaps her original explanation is lost to the sands of time. I did read quite a few of her follow-ups though and see that she is also a HDW, very articulate and quite worth some extra reading just of her posts.
If you only knew how much relief I've gotten just from posting here...
Oh Leigh, I should be the poster child for the "Do not try this at home" warning. Please understand that my situation has improved immensely but I should not be held up as a model on how to fix an SSM!
I first started coming here sometime in 2003. I lurked for a long time before registering. I finally registered in Sept, I believe, but mostly posted on other people's threads. The general tone of my posts back then was "Our situation has improved greatly and I consider us a moderate to great success". I considered us successful enough to attempt another pregnancy (my husbands' libido drops drastically during my pregnancies) and started posting regularly as my preg progressed.
We are now back to the point that we were pre-pregnancy. Actually I think we are farther along the reparation path than we were then--we are having less sex than what I originally thought we would end up having, but the intimacy in our marriage has mutiplied by the dozens. The shame you talk about is a very real thing and a clear marker that the intimacy has taken a nosedive in your M.
I started the Road to Intimacy in much the same way you did--by having a humongous bawling session and scaring the bejesus out of my husband. I too am a hellacious go-getter and have had to rein myself in, so as not to shoot myself in the foot.
I will be watching your thread and hoping for the best for you. Keep the dialogue going and take it slow and easy. I never realized until much later how much my words affected my H and how much I couldn't take it back, if I lost my temper.
One thing I would do if I were you is to focus on solutions. Ask him what he is willing to give, in terms of your sex life. Ask him to be as specific as possible. It sounds terribly unromantic--and it is--but there are only so many times you can hear vague promises of things being better in the future before you start to insist on actual results. My H agreed to twice per week in the beginning and he stuck to it. This, more than any other thing he has ever done in our marriage, showed me how committed he was to me. The only times he has failed to keep this agreement were in times of illness (bad ones like the flu) or during my pregnancy.
I would open this line of conversation as soon as you feel able to. I know it's hard to even talk about these things at first, so awkward is the topic. I would want to know what his preferred frequency is, does he masturbate and how often (he may not answer this one and others may have differing opinions on the relevance of this query), and what sounds good to him in terms of a compromise.
This can get better. I know it seems hopeless right now and the tears will not stop falling. I have been there, along with most of the HDW's on this board.
Here is a sign of how far it is possible to go: I actually said to my husband the other night, "I'm glad you are the way you are--we need one person in this union who has some self control so that we can live normal lives!" And I meant it! Holy crap..never thought I'd ever utter those words.
citizen_cat, Lots of good people here, even to the point "IF I/we could loan your H some of our horniness for a week we would. At least someone would be getting what they want. Since we can not do that, We read, we post our problems and feelings, looking for solutions.
We discover little things that we think will work toward a baby step, we try it, we evaluate the results. Sometimes we feel encouraged by the results, sometimes we wonder if what we do is even worth trying. Mostly we continue to work on the relationship and come here for what ever we can find to improve our R, to sooth our emotions, or to vent.
I liked the "Divorec Remedy" book the most. SSM was interesting and I got some things from reading it, but my W is not at a place where it would do much good. So I am not putting the cart before the horse. The R comes first.
Sounds like cathy47 can tell you what not to do, which is more important in the beginning, as what to do later. Read her history.
Off to work again. I am glad you feel a little better.
Welcome to the board...I would say it's a great place to be, but, well....
Like you, I got very determined to fix my marriage (in the last 1-2 yrs). I got the SSM book because of the title---I really felt starved emotionally and physically. That led to the website, reading more books, going to a MC, etc. We're a persistent bunch here.
The only thing I will add for now is that be prepared for a long process...some here have had immediate success, but for the most part it's two steps forward, one back, doing some things right, making mistakes, etc. It's always helpful to vent and there are some laughs here as well.
I hope you get something from the posts here and from the books. While I agree that there is no need for you to force or even encourage your H to read these books, I don't think there is any harm in letting him see the books. He may even read them, but in anhy case he will see that you are taking st. He steps to improve the relationship.
Also keep in mind that your H was not entirely truthful with you the other day. He said,
Quote: "[he] had never had much of a sex drive" and "I've always been that way".
Well what about those two-a-days 16 years ago? I don't believe for a minute he was just performing to keep you happy. No, his sex drive dropped off. You will be happier if he starts to investigate why this happened and take steps to change it. It will probably make him happier, too.
My marriage has gone from no sex to at least a little since I started posting here. But it still hurts like he!! when she rejects me. It will be a long haul for all of us fixers.
As a preface, let me say that I haven't received the book TSSM yet, but I did a *lot* of reading here and learned some important concepts - the 180 and love languages being the two that had the most impact on me, I think. I also followed the advice about researching low testosterone in men.
As fate would have it, I came down with bronchitis pretty bad and while sitting in a chair trying to sleep with some codeine cough syrup coursing through my veins, I had a lot of time to think. Not only about the big-storm conversation H and I had the other day, but about how I had been acting and also some advice I had been given by a friend (summed up in two words, "dump him") and how it had colored some of my thoughts. I had read Michele's warning about friendly advice and mulled that over quite a bit, too.
When I look back on how I reacted to H's rejections of my advances, I see just what Michele was talking about - I got moody and pouty. Now, how was *that* supposed to help anything? I was amazed at how LONG I had been doing the same thing and it not working, and then I would just go and do the same thing over and over. I think the word here is "duh".
I also thought about how I had tried to "reward" H when I thought he was behaving properly, and I saw that I was trying to give him what *I* wanted, not necessarily what he wanted. That "love language" thing is really simple but I found it powerful. I'm a physical touch/quality time person. H is not. He's a words of affirmation/act of service person. Why didn't I think of this before? The times when he has been most loving with me are when I do things for him as silly as make cheese fries (blech! hate that sticky stuff!) or scoop the catbox for him, or when I tell him about how admire his ability to do X, Y or Z. Thinking about it, these are the times when he was most spontaneous with his affection, when his "thank you" always seemed most sincere. It wasn't when I gave him hugs and stuff - though he liked those fine, up until the point he felt pressured by them. *We speak different love languages*. Yes, I will admit that a lightbulb just about popped on over my head when this finally ground itself through my skull. I had been trying so hard to tell him something without speaking his language... and he had been trying to tell *me* things without speaking mine.
With these things in mind, Thursday as he was driving me to the doctor I asked him if I could make an appointment with him that evening, for "hugs and conversation". I told him not to worry, that we wouldn't be having THE TALK (and everybody here knows what I mean by this, I know!) and that I hoped we would never have to have THE TALK again. I just had some compliments to give, some apologies to make, and some things I had read about that I wanted to talk over with him. He said sure, but he looked a little apprehensive, so I just said "Okay, 8:30 then? Hey, I was thinking about pancakes for dinner, that sound good?" Trying to keep it as light as possible.
After we got home we had dinner (pancakes were good!) and I went to hang up some laundry and tidy up the bedroom while he worked on his new airplane (he flies RC planes). At 8:29 he showed up at the bedroom door, just as I was putting away the last of the laundry. We shooed the cats out and he laid down, sort of propped up against the bed pillows. I crawled over next to him, fully clothed (he usually just wears boxers around the house) so as to make sure I sent the signal that I just wanted to talk. I snuggled up with his arm around me for a few minutes and we made small talk.
I started out by telling him how courageous I thought he had been the other day, and that I knew how much it had taken to say what he had about having a low sex drive. I know how hard it had been for me to say that I felt unloved because our lovemaking was so infrequent, and that I knew the pressures that were put on men to be sexual 24/7 whether they felt that way or not.
That's when he interrupted me and said "But most men DO think about sex 24/7. I know there's something wrong with me." I could hear him getting choked up. "I would do anything to be normal" and he hugged me very tightly.
This is where I am so grateful about the advice on low testosterone - I had no idea that such a condition existed. I had not really planned to bring it up, but it seemed the perfect opportunity. First I asked though did he want to change to please me, in other words was he happy with the way he was, or did he just want to think about sex more often for my sake? And again he said, "I know there's something wrong with me" and then pointed to his head.
So I gave him an overview of what I had learned, that it just might not be in his head at all. I told him I had printed some pages out about the signs that a man might have low testosterone levels and he immediately said "I'd like to read that". We talked about that for about ten minutes, I guess, and he seemed to be more cheerful that I had seen him in a long time. Well, maybe "relieved" is the word. He just kept repeating he had no idea that it could be a physical thing, and we agreed that he met *all* of the ten criteria that were listed on one of the quizzes I had printed out. He wants to have have a blood test to check his levels. Each time he said this I tried to add "...and if that's not it, we'll find a way to work things out" - you know, just in case it isn't low testosterone. But for now I don't think it will hurt for him to think of TRT as an answer to his problems. (And he really does meet all ten criteria.)
After that he seemed very receptive to what I had to say. I told him about love languages and how physical touch and quality time were the way that I felt the most loved, and then I told him about the cheese fries and he laughed. It was so good to hear him laugh while having a conversation like this! I apologized to him for not speaking his language and that I would try to do so from now on - but he quickly interjected "You didn't know, it's not your fault" and I knew that he understood the flip side of the coin, too. And he began to stroke my hair, which he hasn't done in a looooong time.
I asked him about initiation, and if he would feel comfortable being the sole one to initiate sex for a while. This is when he surprised me. He said no, he would like it if I would "remind him" every once in a while because "if you don't, I might not bring it up". He went on to explain that not only did he not think of sex 24/7, but that maybe not even "twenty four minutes out of seven days". "Once I get into the mood I'm like all for it! But I just never think of sex unless there's a trigger. And that's how I know I'm not normal."
So I told him that when I thought we had lots of time, that I would start out slow and see if I could get him thinking the good thoughts and we would go from there. He readily agreed.
After the initial fear of the conversation, and then the relief of seeing some kind of resolution on the horizon for him and how well he was taking all of this for me, we had the free-est and easiest conversation about sex I think we have EVER had. We talked for almost three hours about all kinds of things and even strayed off into fantasies and found that we had one in common that we had never shared before (in 16 years!). We talked about how often we thought was "normal" and agreed that with our schedules and preferences, twice a week would be great. (I think he was relieved that I didn't say "twice a day and five times on Sunday" or something!)
Actually, twice a week would be heaven!
I think that had I felt better, and not been hacking and coughing like a banshee the whole time, we might have made love after our discussion but I was just in no shape (though I would have given it the old college try but he kept hugging me and saying "poor baby" when I would just about cough up a lung).
Every since then he has been so affectionate and cheerful. It's like living with a different person, and to be honest it's also like BEING a different person. I feel free to come up to him and hug him and tell him he's amazing without him cringing away. He pats my knee in the car. I've had more hugs in the last couple of days than in the previous few weeks. He even asked me if I would come with him tonight while he's out on a call (he's an engineer for a giant computer firm and sometimes he can only work on the machines during off-hours, like tonight). He wants to give me the "nickel tour" of this account and show me the bleeding-edge machines he's installed there. He hasn't wanted me to come along on a call for YEARS. I happily agreed, I assure you!
Now I know that in the euphoria of the BEGINNING of working things out, we may be enjoying a kind of second honeymoon as far as mood goes, and we may have more rough patches ahead. I'm pretty sure we will. But I am going to hold onto that concept of the 180 in a death-grip because it WORKS. It gets me out of that same old running-around-in-circles thinking that made me so miserable for so long.
I know this is another long post, and I am sure that even so I left a lot out, but after H gets his T-levels checked I will check back in again. I am not completely pinning all my hopes on this, but I think in this case it is a strong possibility that this is a, if not the, factor.
H even asked me if I had any new lingerie he hadn't seen yet. (And the answer is yes, it's been hanging up for months waiting for an opportunity.)
Before I went to bed (well, "chair") that night, he looked me straight in the eyes and said "thank you". I know what he meant. I think he's probably been suffering as much as I have over this, though I wouldn't have believed that just a little over a week ago.
Maybe we're just ready to fix things. I hope so. Please cross your fingers for us, okay?
