When I was a HDM ( ) I would have differed from CeMar (in his hypothetical) in this regard. NO WAY would I admit to be worn out! EVER!! There's always SOMETHING you can do! My attitude would have been, "Come on, baby! Is that all you've got?"
If it was a size issue....Hmmm. All I can think of would be to ask as she approached the big O, "Am I big enough for you now?"
Cemar, your W sounds as if she's using counterfeit info to hide the real issues. Implying that you're not "big enough" for her is BS if she's not utilizing what you've got, IMO. And complaining about how much you want it when she's not willing to have sex at all is BS, too, IMHO.
BUT...if there is a way for you two to have sex and you're being unreasonable because you can't have it your way or on your terms (other than integrity issues) is BS, too. Only you know what's real there.
Cemar: I asked that question only to illustrate the difference between what you, as an HD male and I as an HD female, are after. You want a wife who likes sex and will show enthusiasm when you have it.
Part of my wishes include having a man who's sex drive overwhelms my own. So your wife would need to go from point A to point M, say, in order for you to be happy. I need my H to go from A to..oh, about V. I need him to not only be willing and enthusiastic but to be a regular old horny guy who pursues me and wants more sex than I do! THAT is what I find sexy.
That is all I was trying to get at with the HDW dilemma. The guys do not expect their wives to ever surpass them, nor would they find that particularly sexy. Like you said, there would then be a little performance anxiety.
However, I just recently realized that this was part of my wishes. Up until then, I'd been fooling myself into thinking that I was wanting moderate changes. It wasn't until I owned up to wanting him to be hornier than me (that is what I find sexy) that I could see that this was unrealistic. Then I was able to grieve that loss a little and move on to a more realistic goal.
No, Barn, I wasn't saying that you should withhold all niceties until she gives up the tantrums.
I suppose it just isn't sitting right with me that the tantrums are bad enough that you would not want to ML with her, yet not so bad that taking her to lunch and cleaning the house together are off limits. That doesn't have a ring of truth to it, kwim?
It seems that sex has become a pricey commodity in your house.
Believe me, I totally understand why you are not interested in having sex with her. I have been there myself. Aside from the rejection and what that does to your desire, there are the tantrums and what that does to the relationship and, consequently, the desire.
Have you told her why you are choosing celibacy? What is her response to this?
Is she making any efforts at all to curb her temper?
If she is, then I think you are obligated to see what transpires from that. If she is saying, Go F yourself I will never change, then I think you might be on the right track in keeping your distance.
One more thought for you: With my H, action is everything. Talk is cheap. I could talk til I was blue in the face and make demands, ask nicely, beg, it didn't matter how I presented it. He was gonna keep doing things his way. It wasn't until I made an exit strategy and told him about it that the changes started becoming more noticable.
I understand that you don't want to leave your M, but there are options other than "shape up or I'm leaving". Be creative and start doling out consequences. Expect her to do the same.
As far as sex being a pricey commodity in my house, it started out as the only one of value. Over time, I discovered that respect is of equal value. It just never occured to me when we M that my W wouldn't respect me enough to try to honor my wishes and meet my needs. Respect became the real issue with both sex and my W's outbursts.
My W comes from a family where they scream at and say pretty terrible things to each other. Afterward, they apologize, say they didn't mean it, and act like nothing happened...until the next time. I come from a background where if you raise your voice, it means you want to fight. I don't want to fight...ever...but if I have to, I will win. So I get blamed for whatever I say (I don't lose my head, only say what I mean, and won't lie about not meaning it) and for not forgiving (acting like it didn't happen).
I'll cut anyone slack as long as attempts are made to alter behavior as needed. But 24 years should be sufficient enough time to get it, DYT?
I'm not sure what part doesn't ring true to you. The fact is that I'm still M and therefore have responsibilities to my W and the M. Those won't change for as long as I'm M, no matter how anyone acts.
I have told her that I'm not interested in sex. She first thought that it would just take time for me to "get over it" like I have sooo many times before. She's starting to understand that something's different this time, partly because I AM being nice to her, I think. She hasn't blown up in a few weeks (3-4). It hasn't been long enough to see if it's a real change or just holiday/family circumstances.
I'll say again, I'm not committed to being ND forever. I'll see what happens as we go. I don't have a deadline on anything or a threat hanging over her head. She did make a comment the other day about when the kids are grown, though. We'll see what that means as we journey on.
I'm not too interested in "doling out consequences". I don't want to be M to my mother or my child. She knows where I stand. It's really up to her to decide what to do about it. She can take me for granted and do nothing or take me serious and make the necessary adjustments. (I don't think showing me respect by curbing her anger is an unreasonable demand.) We'll see what happens.
Hey Barn, I wanted to let you know that I can empathize with your wife about the unconditional love thing.
See, I want my H to show me unconditional desire. I do NOT want his desire to be based upon my weight, whether I am harboring another body inside my own, what the kids are doing, whether I have on dangly earrings or not, etc. Yes he actually said he did not like my dangly earrings last night...that's ALL he said about my attempt to look nice. I suspect he said that because it was a clear attempt on my part to look "sexy".
So I can relate to wanting your partner to have unconditional feelings for you.
Nonetheless, I stand by my previous statement that it isn't real.
I DO WISH that my H's desire wasn't so danged conditional and fleeting, but I doubt that your love for your wife is that precarious.
How's it going today? Is she reading this thread? What does she say about it?
Thanks, HP. I understand exactly what you're saying about the unconditional desire. However, I suggest that what you're really looking for isn't unconditional desire from him but UNWAVERING and UNCEASING desire.
What I'm saying is that you want him to want you ALL the time, no matter the circumstance. (I think that IS the definition of HD.) But as a sane and mature W (that would be post partum ) you wouldn't expect that if you consistently acted in a manner that you knew to be offensive and disrespectful to him.
The first example is a desire to be wanted in a mutually loving R. The second is thumbing your nose at him and saying, "Feel what I want you to feel anyway."
I'm not aware that she's reading this yet. She hasn't said anything about it. I expect to hear her say anyday now, "I thought we were doing GOOD!?!?"
That will just mean that she doesn't believe I am serious (or doesn't remember what I said). That's my fault, BTW. I've gone back on what I've said to her so many times that she has no reason to believe me. My intent was to keep giving it another try, but the result is that I've been "all talk".
I'm sorry your H didn't like your dangly earings. He should have appreciated your attempt to look sexy anyway. If he didn't like them, he could always have pulled them off to nibble your earlobes.
My wife never complains about my size. I do think about it occasionally since I heard long ago that her last love was huge. My wife never complains.
As for the sex, I could actually have sex far more then we do which is about 10 times a year. My wife is "Willing" to have sex. Willingness to have sex is not enough anymore. It actually DEGRADES me to accept sex from someone that really has no desire for it. I want sex with someone that actually wants to please me for a change. It's almost like I use her for a masterbation toy. Afterall, how can I continue to pursue an activity with someone that does not share the same interest level in that activity. Let's face it, a LDW eventually RUINS the sexual experience for the man. I want a LOVER, not a 'willing' partner. The question becomes, how do LDW ever become lovers? I just can't see how they can. And if a married couple is not lovers, then what is the point of their marriage?
Ideally, what would you like your wife to do that proves to you she desires you? Specifically. Not, I want someone who wants to me my lover. What specific actions or statements?
I really think the key is to bare your souls to each other and share your innermost feelings. To do that you both need to hold nothing back, and you both need to learn to listen to the other. The intimacy that grows out of that will fill the void you are feeling now. Intimacy doesn't necessarily equal a laundry list of sex acts, instead it is an intimate knowledge of your partner's feelings, desires etc. Getting to that point is likely the hardest thing you'll ever do, and it may hurt along the way, but I can tell you from first hand experience that it makes all the difference in the world. It would be worth going to a marriage encounter weekend to help you get started.
What is W's feelings? It sounds like maybe she is extending an olive branch with her willingness to do something (ML) because it pleases you. Your actions are saying that isn't good enough, I want the whole thing. It is like breaking the branch into a million pieces and throwing it back at her. Talk to her, understand HER feelings and where she is coming from. You both need to step out of your comfort zones and meet in the middle. From your posts, it sounds like she's stepped in that direction but you steadfastly refuse to take a step toward her. SOrry if this sound harsh, but I think it is the way it is, and it would probably be pretty much the same if you got a D and found OW.
) I would have differed from CeMar (in his hypothetical) in this regard. NO WAY would I admit to be worn out! EVER!! There's always SOMETHING you can do! 
My attitude would have been, "Come on, baby! Is that all you've got?"
) you wouldn't expect that if you consistently acted in a manner that you knew to be offensive and disrespectful to him.