The video idea is not wacky. You even hear this in alcohol treatment programs for alcoholics who will not admit that their personalities change when they're drunk. But you don't need to go to the expense and trouble of installing video cameras. Just get a little hand-held recorder like the thing doctors use for case notes and keep it in your pocket. The next time she "goes off" take it out discreetly and hit the record button. Gather at least two or three of these scenes before you play them for her, otherwise she'll say this was an exception. Also, when she is ranting, say very little, otherwise she'll focus on whatever you said, and claim you provoked her. Once my father accidentally recorded a rant session like that. During it, I made one tiny comment (I was a kid-- neither of us knew the recorder was on), and when he played it back, he focused totally on my one comment and blew off his angry tirade.
Also I'm so glad y'all brought up the unconditional love bullsh!t. I'm not a parent, but I believe people can have unconditional love for their children. And I believe that is the ONLY place it occurs this side of heaven.
Now, my bf has carried it to an extreme and seems to believe that you have to EARN love. Soemthing else we can thank his mom for, I believe.
I OTOH believe that we need to install in the beginning what I call The Assumption of Good Will, which means that, all things being equal, you assume your partner means you no harm. And go from there.
Strangely (and it was a Red Flag that I didn't realize I was seeing, so I ignored it) within the first couple of weeks of our R, I brought up the Assumption of Good Will to my BF (alas, when he was drunk), and he categorically rejected the idea! That struck me as odd, but I didn't realize I was just seeing the tip of the iceberg. I think he really does assume a woman is his enemy and out to get him until proven otherwise. This just came out in the session we had Monday, two and a half years after we got together!
So a resounding YES! adults do not have unconditional relationships/love-- nor should they!!!
Thanks to all that posted. I agree with each of you and think you've offered great ideas.
HP, Thanks for your well wishes. The problem with me going ahead and "hiring out" a stress-reducer is that I get accused of not appreciating what she does. I've tried it, and it's just another reason for conflict. Ergo: what's the use? In addition, it's really not my job to "rescue" her. (I tried to do that for YEARS!) My offer of help is all that I can reasonably be expected to do. I've learned that you can't help someone who won't accept it.
2C, I completely agree with your counselor! That's been a major point of contention in my M. Of course, conditional love is subject to my W's interpretation. (Read: It's only conditional when it's MY behavior!) I also agree that I can be viewed as cajone-less because of the way I'm handling this sitch. I'm OK with that. My purpose is not to find respect for myself in refusing to allow her crap (or else), but rather to keep my home together for the well-being of my children. My W is GREAT with my kids and they adore her. She's learned (by seeing their reaction to her outbursts) not to explode in front of them. That was a HUGE improvement. (The downside is that it confirmed my belief that she can control it when she wants to, and just doesn't care enough about me to want to.) So, I choose to find respect for myself in doing what is best for my family, while trying to stay out of "martyr mode" (even if it is BS. ) Regarding your second post, I'm amazed at the things you've done this past year to put your life together. You deserve many kudos and owe no one any apologies for doing what you felt was best to do at the time.
JJ, Thanks for the idea of video. I agree that it would be a useful tool. However, she's already been presented with an abundance of evidence (and results) of her tirades. The only time it has worked is with my kids. (Thank God!) It's a conscious choice of how she reacts to life and in the last few years, it's been limited to me. It's clear where I fall on the priority list. I realize it and I'm finally OK with it.
FF, I agree with you completely. If I were in you, I'd be doing exactly what you are. My decision to go LD/ND is an attempt to draw the strong boundary you suggest. I actually made my decision about a month ago (when she last blew up) and it's been great! She's overdue for her next "blow", but we've have out of town family with us over part of the holidays so she may just be "storing up". My new ND attitude isn't the real me, but it's helpful in a couple of ways. First of all, I'm not expecting anything and therefore not disappointed. Second, I'm not as aware of other W noticing me. I've never had trouble attracting W. I just never knew what to do (or was M) once they were. It's kind of like a few levels past HP's "chilling out". I'm OK with my kids seeing the way I'm handling it. They know that she stills blows up. And they see that I'm trying to be loving and mature when she does.
Lillie, I live by the Assumption of Good Will. IMO, it makes forgiveness much easier. Over time, however, it becomes increasingly difficult to maintain when you're the only one in a R that operates by it. Or when your partner's definition of the AoGW allows continual destructive behavior on their part. Eventually, it "breaks the glass".
Thanks again to everyone for your comments. It's almost like having friends who care.
Does she realize the impact that it is having on you? If so, has she made any efforts to reduce or eliminate them?
I find it hard to believe, seeing as how nice she is to others, that she simply doesn't care that she does this.
And my suggestion stands. If she has another one, leave the house and refuse to participate in it in any way, shape or form. Do not come back to your home until she is calm. Repeat this until she learns that blowing up is not acceptable and she must find another way to decompress her stress.
She just says that she felt overwhelmed. She admits that she shouldn't react in that way and that she only does with me.
A week or so after the last one she suggested that we spend the day together (code for "have sex after we clean the house and spend sufficient time talking"). I told her that I'd be glad to help her and take her to lunch, but that I didn't want sex. She asked why and I told her because of her outburst. She accused me of being unforgiving as I HOM. I calmly explained that I had been telling her for 24 years that refusing sex and blowing up on me would destroy my desire for and willingness to pursue her. After talking for a bit, she asked, "So what is it that I do?" I laughed and pointed out how insulting it was for her to ask me that. I asked her if she really wasn't listening or if she just didn't care enough to remember. She didn't answer.
As I said earlier, she "blows" much less often than in the past. She seems to care enough about it to limit when it occurs. Most of her long-time friends wouldn't believe that she acts this way. She has reserved this for family and my employees.
Good advice on how to handle it. I'll see if it works.
I'm with HP as far as leaving the house during outbursts goes. It is simply not acceptable. My H once in a while goes into a tirade where he randomly yells (he's usually very even keeled) - not at anyone in particular but about something and sometimes it goes overboard - once I just walked away from him without a word. He was awfully loving later on that evening... (not sex, just loving).
Also as far as the going ND/LD goes - doesn't it feel inauthentic to you? I struggle with this one myself. Sometimes I get so worn down in the struggle that I actually don't feel much desire. Currently, I am just trying to behave how I authentically feel rather than "trying not to desire."
My decision to go ND/LD was one I've toyed with for a long time, even before I found this BB and discovered the HD/LD terms. In the past, it was a place of defeat for me. I had a "victim mentality" and felt trapped into it. Now it's different. It's very much like a PM boundary where you refuse to accept "mercy sex". I can respect myself in it. I'm not trying to manipulate my W to do (or not do) anything. Neither am I committing myself to this forever. Things could change and I can be hopeful that they will.
It does feel a bit artificial. But like anything else, I will get used to it by doing it for a while.
Barney, Why are you willing to take her to lunch and help clean the house but no nookie?
IOW, why are you using sex as a weapon? I understand perfectly that desire is not a constant thing and is dependent on how you are treated but why would that be the only thing withheld from her?
I'm willing to help clean and buy food because...I'm the perfect man??
I'm not trying to accomplish anything other than maintain my self-respect. I just won't ML to a W that treats me the way she does. That doesn't mean I don't have responsibilities around the house or will refuse to act in a cordial way toward her.
Are you suggesting that I only help or be nice to her if I get sufficient nookie? Wow, THAT's the way it ought to be!
I don't think I'm using sex as a weapon. I'm just refusing to violate my integrity to be intimate under the present circumstances. Is that a bad thing? As I recall, it's pretty close to PM principles.
Quote: In the past, it was a place of defeat for me. I had a "victim mentality" and felt trapped into it. Now it's different. It's very much like a PM boundary where you refuse to accept "mercy sex". I can respect myself in it. I'm not trying to manipulate my W to do (or not do) anything. Neither am I committing myself to this forever. Things could change and I can be hopeful that they will.
It does feel a bit artificial. But like anything else, I will get used to it by doing it for a while.
Barney, this pretty accurately describes the "place" where I've lived the past 2-3 years. I think of it as consciously CHOOSING celibacy, rather than having it thrust upon me by an LD/ND wife, with me hoping against hope every day if "today might be the day" that she feels affectionate towards me.
I just have problems with "mercy sex", scheduled sex (before I get a BUNCH of replies, I do NOT equate the two -- I just have a hard time with both) or any affection or desire that is only given because she's threatened with me leaving her.
If I was a 3x week guy and the wife wanted it morning, noon, and night, I would probably wear out and would start to feel abused and maybe worry about some young stud filling her needs. But the difference would have to be very large, and in my case that won't happen. However, in my case, my wifes old flame was hung like a horse(or so I am told) and that can play mind games with me.
) Regarding your second post, I'm amazed at the things you've done this past year to put your life together. You deserve many kudos and owe no one any apologies for doing what you felt was best to do at the time.