Lillieperl wrote {{it strikes at your very identity. It's not something you just blow off or "get over." It requires real grieving and mourning}}
Lillieperl and all. I agree with you 100%. Not having your own child can be heartbreaking. Your comment about the couple that could afford the in vitro and got PG twice and the other couple that could not afford in vitro or what ever she chose, could not get PG once. Just goes to show you how inequitable life is.
{{ ..... long....fertility treatments....make it extremely difficult to go on (or go back) to ordinary, loving, casual, spontaneous sex.}}
I can see it too, Lillieperl. It is so sad that, as happened to your less rich friend, Caro might avoid some unintended consequences.
{{The whole experience drove a wedge between them. She is now living on her own and hopes to be able to avoid a divorce. They are trying to rebuild their R.}}
Something like you posted above is what I was tkinking about when I made my comments about Caro's position in life.
Sometimes I try to be supportive in a way that is too-mater-of-fact. My W presents me with many small problems weekly. To her they are dilemmas. I give her my best answer eventhough not everything is perfect in her opinion.
I liked Greeneyedlass post. Honest questions. I hoped it helped Caro some. If I were Caro I would find the KY or Astroglide and do something. That is up to her.
OG, I can see that you are a very sensitive guy. Sometimes when we see someone hurting, it's very painful for us to watch. Especially if it taps into our own pain. We want them to stop hurting, so we make comments that inadvertently sound like we are minimizing the pain. In a way we are... like saying to the kid whose puppy dies "We'll get you another puppy." We just want the child to stop hurting. But it's so important to permit ourselves and others to FEEL the hurt, even when seeing them in pain makes us hurt, too.
I think this is at the root of the guys' tendency to want to fix stuff. It's a lovely trait, really, and very masculine, IHMO. It's hard to just sit with someone and let them cry. A guy wants to get up and use a hammer or a computer or his fists to make it right. It's a good thing.
But a woman (and men, too) sometimes need to sit with a dilemma and feel what it feels like to be stumped, hurt, trapped, stupid, defeated, etc.
The next time your wife brings you something that seems like a simple dilemma to you, sympathetize and empathetize with her distress before you offer your solution. (You probably already do this. )
My BF is very challenged in this area. It sometimes makes me think he doesn't have an ounce of compassion in his body. I can't bring him my hurts, because seeing me in pain distresses HIM so much that he blows me off.
Yesterday on the highway I saw something that upset me and I wanted to talk to someone about it... just to express my dismay. There was nothing to be fixed. I knew that if I told him (because I've encountered this kind of thing a zillion times before), he'd just tell me not to be upset, that there's nothing I can do about it, etc. etc. I'd like him to put his arms around me and just say, "I'm sorry you're sad about this. I understand." PERIOD. END OF CONVERSATION. So I kept the whole thing to myself.
Lillie said, " I'd like him to put his arms around me and just say, "I'm sorry you're sad about this. I understand." PERIOD. END OF CONVERSATION. So I kept the whole thing to myself."
That entire thread was "right on" and the last sentence is where women's hurt comes in. Add to it the personality that is "self", that is, if you have a sad event some just go off by themselves and dont understand the power of touch or hug to delute the sorrow.
Lillie, you're very astute in your ppl studies!
Pity me that the heart is slow to learn
What the swift mind beholds at every turn.
Edna St. Vincent Millay
Lillieperl wrote {{It's hard to just sit with someone and let them cry.......The next time your wife brings you something that seems like a simple dilemma to you, sympathetize and empathetize with her distress before you offer your solution. (You probably already do this.}}
Lillieperl thanks for the reply. Yes, sometimes I do empathize. Sometimes I say nothing and get accused of not caring. Wish I could discover when to and when not to xyz or what ever. I do not want to be right and lose.
My wife ask direct questions so I reply as I see the situation. After she asks, she often does the opposite of what I think is the proper way to go. My frustration level is higher now so I am being more direct with my W. Too much pussy footing around and not getting anywhere. Sorry for the down stuff. DBing has been trying.
OG Lou Maybe I should just say yup or nop or is that Yes mam, or no mam, maybe nothing. That is wrong too.
Caro: I wanted to chime in on a couple of points. First, I wanted to echo whoever commented on you not enjoying foreplay. You might want to do some introspection on why this is. Any abuse in your background? Not wanting to be touched in a sexual manner tends to point to some dark history...and if so, you need to deal with that. There are others here who are better than me about that sort of thing.
Second, I just want to put in my two cents about adoption. I know that there is a special bond between a mother and her child, but a bond forms between a mother and her adopted child, too. I have three kids from a prior marriage, and one kid my W and I adopted. They're all wonderful kids. There are so many children in the world who need moms and dads in their lives, you might want to investigate this. I was sitting next to a woman the other night who was talking with another lady about how she was going to Russia next month to adopt her second son from there. She said that she regretted going through all the fertility and in vitro procedures because it really tapped them out financially, and if they hadn't done that, she would be able to adopt more children. Yeah, I know I shouldn't have been eavesdropping but it's one of my favorite pasttimes.
I hope you are able to work through your problems and end up with a happy family all the way around.
Good grief! What a wide-ranging discussion from one tiny paragraph!
First, thanks to all who've added their thoughts - not sure I'll be able to deal with every point but it has helped to get some feedback even if some of the responses left me a bit puzzled and (I have to say it) slightly irritated. This last was really at those who don't have the experience of sub-fertility and so isn't really fair, I know. To those that have, thank you for your understanding and comments. I can't remember who it was who wrote a lovely long reponse about 2 couples she knows but you have a really good grasp of many of the emotional issues and hearing that really helped. The impact that the fertility stuff has had is enormous. I was a member of a net discussion/message group connected with endometriosis while I was going through it and most people there knew what I was talking about without detailed explanation because they have been there themselves. My fault, I forgot that the rest of world doesn't, perhaps! Sorry for irritated outburst above. Hormones?
As for adoption, my H won't hear of it at the mo esp as I'd like a baby and there aren't any in my area of UK to adopt. We'd therefore have to go abroad and pay enormous amounts of money which he says he feels is morally wrong. I disagree and am not actually sure that he really feels the way he says he does - I think it's an excuse for some other reservation he has but doesn't want to dredge up at the moment. In any event, we haven't the money for this or for IVF which here costs the equivalent of about $6,000 per cycle. Actually, I think the very act of putting down "on paper" the idea that I'd muddled ML with ttc (trying to conceive - an endo board abbreviation) has helped me to think about this a bit more. In fact, I did manage to initiate yesterday and H was a happy bunny!
Re: the foreplay issue: it's not that I need it so no KY etc required. I think it might be a technique issue. Something I have to ponder on a bit more for myself. And, no, there is no abuse in my background.
A question: am I right in thinking that most people here are HD relative to their partners? I can't seem to find many posts from LD people.
H does have moments of frustration about the situation and we have had some enormous rows about it. I know he feels rejected,disappointed etc. He doesn't go on about it all the time, however, and he is still making initiating moves. Pressurising though I find it, I do acknowledge that this is a good sign that he hasn't entirely given up.
In summary, I think that this LD stage in my life has a great deal to do with the endo/surgery/fertility issues. I believe it's these that I need to work on and, if I never visit this site again, the fact that it's given me the opportunity to make this connection and to hear from other people who know a bit about this stuff has been a big step in the right direction. So, thank you.
I'm going to 2nd your view on adoption. I know many, many people would prefer to have a child of their own making...I did and I wouldn't trade the experience. I think that's also why many women want to "have a child" rather than adopt...the experience is amazing.
But...being as that I am an adopted child I'm whole-heartedly for that as well. I wouldn't trade my family for ANYTHING! I know how special & lucky I am to have been adopted into them. As an adopted child there is no question that yes, you were wanted :-)
Since you are on the LD side of your R you might want to check into MrsNOPkins posts. She and MrNOPkins have both been posting on here lately...she is/was the LD partner in that relationship...and they've had success in their R. Not to mention both a very intelligent people who are able to clearly state their perspectives.
Well...since your H is against adoption and other methods are extremely expensive for you I definitely have sympathy for your situation. My best advice for you though is to work on your R with your H and learn to enjoy sex with him. If foreplay is a technique issue for you (whether yours or his) definitely explore this. Find what works for you the best...and as uncomfy as this can be explain it to him...or show him. That's what I'm having to learn to do with my H :-)
I'm very hopeful that if you can learn to enjoy ML just for it's own benefits, then perhaps you'll relax enough to be able to become pregnant. I really hope you can, it's an experience I could never explain to another woman...and really, truly hope you are able to experience for yourself.
I am an infertile woman myself, who has conceived 3 children with fertility drugs. (singletons, thank goodness!) I would like more children, but I think we will adopt, rather than go thru all that again--too many kids out there who need parents, like HD said.
I can't remember from your original post, but have you always been LD? Is this a result of the fertility process or did the ttc thing just happen to coincide with the loss of your libido?
I know a guy whose wife was taking fertility drugs and he was the HD partner. He said it really icked him out that she normally disliked sex with him, pushed away his advances but then if it was "the" days of the month, then she expected him to be all over her. It was a real mindscrew and it felt gross to him. Gross because he wanted to ML and bring a life into the world and instead he felt like she wanted his sperm but not HIM. So the fertility thing can definitely throw lots of kinks into an already difficult SSM situation. In my case, I couldn't get my LDH to have sex on the proper days...I'd wait all month, take the fertility drugs and he'd refuse to make love. It was heartbreaking.
The initiation was a good first step! Keep the momentum going and let us know how it all turns out.
I can only imagine the pain of infertility. A friend of mine just did her first ivf and is waiting for the pg test. It has been a miserable journey. For the record - she NEVER sounds as if she enjoys sex for its own sake. It is awfully sad. It is sad to want a baby so much and to have it be so difficult and it is equally sad that the experience can take love away from the very people who want a child to express that love.
All of that being said, for the good of the M you need to look into your heart, your emotions etc... to find and remove the blocks to enjoying whole hearted sexuality in your M. Do it for you. Sometimes it is painful to look at the things that may be impeding the sexual R but if we plan to live a lifetime with our spouses that is the way the cookie crumbles.
Yes, most on this board are HD but I also experienced LD when I was in a very troubled R. It is difficult in its own way.
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