Well, I was locked out of my last thread, probably a good place to start a new thread anyway.
Jenny,
Thanks for reminding me that my own POV has a large part to play in this. Right now I'm feeling like I've done everything but stand on my head, and gotten nowhere. I'm sure I've left some rocks unturned somewhere, but since H has made it pretty clear that he's not interested in listening to what I have to say, I'm going to save my breath for now.
I met with the 'crisis councelor' today. A very nice young woman, who really didn't have a lot to offer to me. Her basic advice was that I should try to get P to come talk to their counsellors. Fat chance.
I said that I knew he wouldn't, and that I didn't feel at this point talking was going to do much. She seemed to agree, but couldn't offer any real advice. She said at one point that I needed to decide if I wanted to stay in this R or get out. I said - what if I get out, what then? She said then file for D. she couldn't give me any more advice than that. I asked about getting a lawyer, she said, yeah, I guess you should do that after you file. I asked about the 6 mo waiting period (D works here that one or both Ss file, there is a 6 mo waiting period, after which one, or both Ss file again. That's it) - what was I supposed to do during that time, especially since H probably wouldn't be too happy about this, she couldn't say.
She said if that's the way you want to go, maybe you should rent an apartment and get out with the kids. I said that I really didn't want to leave - I can't imagine living in an apartment, especially one the size that I could afford right now...with 4 small children. She asked if I considered going back to the States, I said that that had crossed my mind, but that I had no idea what my rights were concerning that (meaning the children - if it could be considered kidnapping if H didn't want me to go - what kind of rights I had) she couldn't tell me, nor could she give me any reference to anyone who could give me such advice.
So, I guess I'm left basically where I was before. I need to decide how I want to continue. Make a decision. Which of course, I'm very very good at (said in a tone of heavy sarcasm).
Maybe I'm looking for someone to make the decision for me. I really wish there was some way I could know which is best for the kids. Right now, H is in a good mood, came home and sat with us for dinner, is right now in tucking the girls into bed - on time (but then I've been home all afternoon). If it was like this all the time, if there wasn't the underlying 'fear' of wondering when I'm going to overstep his 'boundaries'...
I know I can't go on too long like this. I can't go 'back' to not doing anything. The only thing I can do - what I have to do - is insist that H either see a psychiatrist, or move out at least until he does. And I have to find someway of doing it so that he understands that I am serious. How can I 'force' him out of the house? Of course, I can't. I don't know, I don't want to know, what would have to happen before the law could get involved.
Or then I have to leave. I don't want to - I won't unless it's absolutely necessary - before Christmas. So I guess maybe I have to find some way of keeping myself together at least 'till then. Who knows, maybe I'll learn something about myself along the way.
But what I am finally seeing is the absolute necessity to make a decision. Corri's right, folks (as if we didn't know ) the only thing we can do is draw a line in the sand, and stand behind it. No matter what. If we can't stand up for who we are, we can't expect anyone else to have any kind of respect for us.
If I wasn't afraid of the repercussions of my 'line' (and I'm talking violent explosions - I really don't know what I can expect from H any more) I would do it tonight. My reason for waiting 'till after Christmas is not only fear, but the necessity of making sure I can back up my words somehow, and the knowledge that it will be easier to stick to my words once the holidays are over.
The worst part?? After listening to 3 people tell me this week they can't understand how I've kept my sanity through this, and wondering why I haven't gotten out sooner, I still wonder if I'm exagerating all this, if things really wouldn't be better for the kids here. It's damn hard drawing that line.
FF: Sounds like the crisis counselor was a total bust. And I know how you were looking forward to so much more from her.
I think you're right about making a decision. You'll know when it's the right time and what decision you need to make.
I remember when I was getting ready to divorce my XW. I had an attorney draw up papers, was in the process of buying a different house, etc., but was holding off because I didn't want to spoil the kids' Christmas. I figured I'd wait until after New Year's. As it happened, my XW told me to get out of the house on December 7. I filed all the papers the next day.
You might want to get your ducks in a row, too. See an attorney. I would hope they would have some better advice than your counselor.
FF, I am so sad for you. All this crap going on in your life and so far from home, too. {{{FF}}}
Sounds like you're going to have to discuss the issues with an attorney to get a better idea of what your options are and what the procedures might be. I ran across this link online (with an appeal to all the appropriate disclaimers):
Hang in there. My D was one of the worst and the best things to ever happen in my life. My current issues with H pale in comparison to that entire time period. Keep your chin up.
FocusedFlutist, Sorry things are not more concrete. Yes, lots of painful decisions. Just a cyber {{{{{hug}}}} to you from a cyber friend. I am sure all here on the BB would love to hug you too if they could.
sorry you didn’t come away with much ... but I’m not surprised. I do think finding out about your legal rights would be the next logical step, if only as a “backup” and added security when you draw that line in the sand.
The divorce laws of most European countries are kind to the economically weaker partner (child support and alimony) of a long-term marriage, but I’m not familiar with Finland specifically. There is also a tendency to grant physical custody to the mother.
Are your children dual citizens? Do you have passports for all of them? Just curious.
May or may not be useful right now, just thought it might help in the future.
I finished reading "Boundaries in Marriage" and thought it was just an OK book. Kind of general advice with references to Bible verses.
Here are a couple of pages that seem to apply to me and some parts that might apply to or might help FF & HD.
From “Boundaries In Marriage” by Cloud/Townsend, Zondervan 1999 (fair use post, some words ommited or added for clarity)
page 107
I do not know where I first heard this saying, but I have come to believe it: “You get what you tolerate.” In other words, in an imperfect world, imperfection will always seek you out, and if you tolerate it, you will certainly find all of it that you can handle. Unpleasant things seek the level they are allowed to exist in your life, especially in a marriage.
While you might get all the bad stuff you tolerate, what about the good things in a marriage? Where do they come from? They generally come from the same place from which “tolerance” comes: your values. On both the positive and the negative side, ultimately what you value is, is what you will have. If you value something in a relationship, you will not tolerate anything that destroys this value, and you will also seek to make sure it is present and growing. And because of these values, the relationship takes on an identity and form, a character of its own. Certain things happen in the relationship, and other things don’t. What you value happens and what you don’t value will be absent. In marriage, for example, it works like this:
1. We will not tolerate anything that violates our value of honesty.
2. We both will actively seek to build and increase the presence of honesty in our marriage.
Your values make sure that certain bad things are not present in the marriage and that certain good things are. The values become the ultimate identity and protective boundaries of the marriage.
Page 225) Establish Appropriate Consequences
Whatever your spouse is doing that is hurting you, the benefits he receives may far outweigh your appeals and requests. At this point, you need to set consequences.
A consequence is an effect, or result, of another act. You need to establish some consequence for your spouse’s transgression so that he will experience some discomfort for his irresponsibility. A consequence has to have several very important characteristics:
(Consequences should be)
1. Designed to help with reality and protect you, not designed to control or change your spouse: Boundaries and consequences are not about fixing someone or making them choose better. They are about allowing appropriate cause and effect so that your spouse will experience the pain of irresponsibility and then change.
2. Deliberate, and not impulsive or set in anger: Think through, prayerfully and with friends, what an appropriate consequence might be. It is not about getting even. It is about getting out of enabling your spouse and about protecting yourself from evil.
3. As reality-based as possible: You want reality to be your spouse’s instructor. For example, a husband who becomes enraged should have people leave his presence for a while. No one wants to be around people having tantrums. This is preferable to an unrelated consequence such as having him watch the kids an extra evening.
(page 226)
4. Appropriately severe: Evaluate how chronic, destructive, and severe the boundary violation is. For example, a spouse who won’t clean up the dishes might need to cook some meals for himself to get the idea. But a spouse who is having an affair may need to leave the home. Either way, the consequence needs to be serious enough to matter, but not so severe that it, rather than the behavior, becomes the issue.
5. Enforceable: Make sure this is something you can and will do. You need to make sure you have the power and resources to set the limit. If you can’t tell the pastor you are having trouble in your marriage, don’t threaten to do that.
6. Preservative of your spouse’s freedom. Don’t set a consequence by saying, “You have to,” “You must,” or, “I will make you: Consequences are not something you do to control your spouse. They are reactions to his choices. Let him make his choices, but prepare your reactions.
7. As immediate as possible: Just as kids need quick consequences, so do spouses. Your spouse can make the association between his action and the results if they are close together in time.
8. Respectful of his role as spouse: Stay away from humiliating or punitive consequences such as making fun of him or making sarcastic remarks.
9. Designed to be modified as your spouse changes: Consequences don’t have to be forever. As your spouse owns and repents, you can change the consequences. However, be sure that change has truly occurred over some period of time. “I’m sorry” is not enough to let go of the consequence. The other side of this, however, is that you may have to escalate the severity of the consequence if your spouse behaves worse. A spendaholic wife may need to work extra hours to earn the money she spent. But if she gets worse, she may need to lose her credit cards.
I studied "Applied Behavior Analysis" (ABA) in a college progran to help prepare developmentally disabled adults for jobs. Also works for problematic children. The Consequences section is right out of the ABA book. The Consequences would have to be tempered with consideration of spouses feelings.
Lou: You picked out some of the best passages from this book. I paid particular attention to the "consequences" section, which led me to my "Plan-2005" of progressive consequences for my W's continual minimizing of my needs/wants/desires. I'm sure you all will get a front row seat as this plan begins its implementation.
) the only thing we can do is draw a line in the sand, and stand behind it. No matter what. If we can't stand up for who we are, we can't expect anyone else to have any kind of respect for us.