You know, OW 1's reponse to H's circular really does all the work for me, it has done me a service, letting me off the hook, as it were -
Quote: She thought she swould take a leaf out of H's book (bunching us all together) and reply to all in likewise manner. Well, her replying has meant that H knows, sort of, what we think, only *I* didn't have to say it!! So he will feel no antagonism from my side.
She has never met OW 2, but Livnlearn has been hurt enough ( gosh, she has noticed???) and she doesn't mean to hurt us further.... Well, OW 1 has finally (sort of) admitted that she and H have done wrong and hurt me, after all the denials...
But says, H is behaving like a strutting cock, who after years of wallowing in gloom, probably brought on by himself, Here, OW 1 firmly puts the reason for H's gloom back in his lap, presumably she can now see that I didn't 'drive him away', as he told her and she initially chose to believe
he has now got his little harem and has decided to shoo us off like flies who are anoying him. I told H on Christmas day that the thing I found most hurtful and unacceptable was his rude and supercilious behaviour, his behaving like a little God... now he has someone else (his 'friend' and 'sister' no less) saying the same thing to him!!
By writing like that to all of us he has humiliated the three of us. (Livnearn note: *I* don't feel humiliated, rather, I feel sorry for H ... )
Says, many have commented on H's pompousness but OW 1 has always defended him, now she sees they are right and she was wrong. Same here, I have 'defended' H so much against the outside world, without making any boasts about it... I guess he has always taken it for granted.
So, not to count on any friendship or sisterhood with her. He doesn't get to choose all of the time!! He doesn't control all of his relationships/friendships on *his* terms only....
Talking about gloom, I returned to a very cold house after four days away and the heating turned off, so to keep warm I put on a CD of dance music and was dancing away completely on my own for nearly an hour and thoroughly enjoying myself!
And was thinking, that H has been so down for so long, sort of sneering, anti everything. He just put a damper on so much, and all along I thought it was something to do with me. Perhaps he really is just clinically depressed. He would have sneered at the music I was dancing to, as it is sort of mainstream pop stuff, but I was having FUN. When I went to my country of origin last summer, I went out a few times with my good friend to dance parties and really had FUN, even though there was nobody 'interesting' for me there, no one to have an R with or anything. Even D came along to a couple and enjoyed herself as the only kid there, 'cause she's outgoing and fun to be with.
I think I picked up on H's depression and personalised it as a reaction to me, all these years.
Remember, when H dropped the bomb, he told me the bottom line was that OW 1 was just plain more FUN to be with. That was after I had challeneged him on all the other reasons he had been giving me for leaving.
Livnlearn
"The unexamined life is not worth living" - Socrates
Dear Dear LNL! I sit here thinking of the tune....."What a difference a day makes..." But in your case what a difference a weeekend makes!
You sound sooooooo much more self directed!
Isn't it funny how we let our spouses affect us? We begin to believe it must be all "Us"...it isn't him....it's me.......
How silly that all seems now with some time and perspective. You really do seem to have turned a corner. That circular, although meant to exonerate H from responsibility, managed to turn on the light for more people than H ever thought it would.
I sit here laughing at his silly, sorry, self!
I hope you are feeling absolutely GREAT!!!!! right about now....... You are an amazing person....even if H is too foolish to see it. Big Hug! and keep going with those new changes!! Trish
Indeed, what a difference a few days can make. Yesterday I could feel myself cycling into a down period and told myself I had had enough of this stuff! I KNOW it is a cycle, that has precious little to do with outside events. So I have to be aware of when it is happening and take preventive measures. And today I am not down!
I have come up with another resolution - I will not go to the public website that H posts to, to talk about his (our common) interest, as even though it is nothing to do with relationships, he still manages to mention his 'ex-wife' quite often...
I stopped all snooping more than a year ago, this is all that remains of keeping the finger on the pulse, as it were, but it affects my PMA and makes me want to puke at times too. For instance, on this site, and even to me directly, he has referred to himself as an alpha male... and I don't know whether to laugh or retch at this perception. So I feel it is best not to even expose myself to his nonsense. So no more visits to that site.
There, I feel better already! My moods will NOT be tied to what H is doing or what he is thinking.
I printed out what Mojo posted to this thread a week or so ago, and was thinking about it during my few days away. I will quote the relevant part again -
Quote: What's to negotiate? If you have a serious relationship problem, you're obviously not getting what you hoped to get out of being in that relationship and it's not serving you to stay in it unless you just like being the victim.
My bet is that the other party is dealing with you in a way that he or she thinks is okay--part of the unwritten agreement. You see once you've put up with some form of mistreatment without protest, you've allowed that sort of behavior to become the norm. You have an unwritten agreement that how he or she is treating you is okay.
The only solution for that relationship is for you to negotiate a new agreement.
The place of power from which you must negotiate your new agreement is a stance that has you outside the relationship, intending to choose back into it with a new understanding.
If a new agreement cannot be reached, there’s no basis for a continuing relationship. This attitude may seem cold and hard until you stop consider that the real purpose of a relationship is to provide you with the experience of being who you are.
All your relationships serve that purpose—even those that seem to upset you. What I’m saying here is that the job you don’t like serves you by allowing you to be the victim of a boss you don’t like, doing work you don’t like so you can be the lightweight you’ve chosen to be in that relationship. Your way back to power is to give up your role as the victim.
Negotiate out of choice, not attachment, and never out of fear
When I suggest choosing out of a relationship with the intention of choosing back into it under a new agreement, I’m never surprised by the fearful reactions and the looks of disbelief that I would even suggest such a thing.
Let me assure you that the greatest possible relationship you could ever have would be one where you were clearly there in that relationship by choice, not because you were afraid not to be.
When you’re in a relationship only because you’re afraid of what life might be like out of it, you don’t really have a relationship; you have an attachment. If you can’t see yourself outside the relationship choosing back in under new rules, you are hooked.
The basis for your relationship is fear, not love. If you remain in a relationship because you are afraid not to be in it, you are firmly attached. Don’t tell me that’s love, because it isn’t!
So, I was thinking about all this, and thought, at this point, I am out of the relationship all right - H has been away with OW, we have a SA in place, I am thinking about how to manage without him etc. Would I want H back with things like they were before?
No.
I figured it was my dissatisfaction with the way H behaved that got all this going. I didn't know how to deal with it, how to approach H about it, and when he didn't appear to be listening to me regarding certain issues, I had screaming/shouting sessions, to which H would do NOTHING at all, or he would evade the issue.
I suppose I may have told him one time too many that I 'wasn't prepared to put up with the way things were' (I was meaning things needed to change between us), he took that to mean I would leave, so he built up resentment about that and decided to leave first himself, having formed such a deep 'friendship' with my friend.
I don't want to go back to a man who -
Doesn't or can't show me that he cares, especially when I am down, depressed, ill or whatever. When I am vulnerable. I have virtually no memories of him being kind to me in those situations. Only one small time. But not on the big occasions. My being in any way needy provoked hostility in him. Even my friend mentioned seeing him being unkind (or rather less than kind) to me once when I had acute back problems. And yet he can be a big baby when HE is ill. I don't wish to be married to a fair weather friend.
Disrepects me verbally and otherwise, and thinks nothing of it. As recently as a few weeks ago, he talked about us not being equal, so he couldn't treat me as equal. Well, buddy, if that's the case, you have a deep seated problem there. He has a lot of unresolved issues to do with his innate feeling of superiority (perhaps linked to his deep seated feelings of inferiority?) that others have pointed out to me in the past. I could 'help' him with those when I was 'on his team', but when directed at me, it is a different matter. I *do* remember him showing a level of disrepect to others sometimes that I found uncomfortable, and would tell him so. He is still showing high levels of disrespect to all and sundry these days. And all this when H tries to show his CARING CONCERN in his public work. I think 'charity' begins at home, with your wife and child.
These were two issues that got my goat even during the 'good times', so I think they are too important to ignore now. They are deal breakers.
Livnlearn, thinking out loud.
"The unexamined life is not worth living" - Socrates
Quote: For instance, on this site, and even to me directly, he has referred to himself as an alpha male... and I don't know whether to laugh or retch at this perception.
I think, any guy who has tyo declare himself an alpha male, probably isn't!
Quote: He has a lot of unresolved issues to do with his innate feeling of superiority (perhaps linked to his deep seated feelings of inferiority?) that others have pointed out to me in the past.
Bingo!
Quote: I don't want to go back to a man who -
Doesn't or can't show me that he cares, especially when I am down, depressed, ill or whatever.
Funny, my H, who is normally a kind and caring sort, was like this with me too. In his case, it had to do with coming from a family where the ethic was "suck it up! Be tough!" - so much so that I think it actually made him anxious if I did anything less (and no, I'm not a whiny crybaby when I'm sick).
Quote: These were two issues that got my goat even during the 'good times', so I think they are too important to ignore now. They are deal breakers.
In my case, my H had lots of good qualities before the aliens took him, so I fought hard for him. Sounds to me, though, you are finding you can't say the same about your H? I agree he would have to grow up - a lot! - in order for you to ever consider wanting him back - and that he doesn't sound like the best candidate for that growth. But I would never ASSume that he is incapable. There must have been something you saw in him, to make you fight this hard for this long.
Still - loving detachment, drop the rope, GAL. You know the drill
Quote: Still - loving detachment, drop the rope, GAL. You know the drill
Ellie
I have spent most of today on the computer, on this BB and elsewhere. Sort of 'wasted my time', but not really.
I read up a load of stuff, especially in the Midlife Crisis forum, and want to post a link to a thread by Snodderly and Heart's Blessings about MLC - here
It is very obvious to me now that my H is in a MLC. Too much of his behaviour has been described here in detail by others. It is comforting in a way, as it allows me not to take all the cr*p personally. It will help me to detach.
All this strange behaviour started WELL before the bomb, I was just too ignorant and uninformed to see it for what it was. I had no way of dealing with it in a constructive manner.
There does seem to be a cluster of personalites/behaviours that is common to MANY of the WAHs of the LBS folk posting here. Perhaps certain types of men with certain childhood experiences end up having such destructive MLCs. Because not all men end up like this.
I would describe my H as always being a little 'difficult' ('particular') but certainly not as bad as these days, or I wouldn't have married him! And naturally he has plenty of redeeming characteristics too.
He has a lot of growing up to do, as I do too. I hope he grows through this. I am being forced to do so!
If love is being there for someone, whatever the circumstances, then yes, I do love my H. He has not had anyone much in his life to offer consistent, unconditional love, except for his grandmother. Who is long deceased. And myself. I hope this doesn't sound boastful, but it is how I see things.
I certainly need to detach and take care of myself, and find myself, but I will not completely give up on H.
I know in my own mind I am far from being able to start a new R with anyone anyway. I do not give my love away lightly. I mean the kind of love one gives to a spouse. So there is no hurry. Maybe I will have the opportunity to start a new R with my own H.
I feel that H has precious little to rant and rave at me about now anyway. If he tries, I will just have to stand my ground. I will NOT let him push me and D out of the house. The law in this country is on my side about that.
I just listened once again to the voice message that he left me on New Year's Eve after D arrived at his place with the bags of shopping. He sounds really relaxed, happy and thankful for the stuff, and sincerely wishes me a nice time. Quite different from a few days before. Maybe this augurs well for 2005.
Livnlearn
"The unexamined life is not worth living" - Socrates
Still no reply from H regarding why he felt he was here over Christams on sufferance. I don't really expect a reply to this one.
I went to meet him and D at the bus stop this morning. He gave me a kiss on the cheek. We had a coffee nearby and then walked home. As we chatted, he once again asked where exactly this place was that I had been to, and had I had a nice time? He told me he had had a wonderful time with D for the five days. Told me that D had had one of her few showers at his house... ...I knew that, judging by the smell whenever she returns home!
As we were walking down our road, D says, oh, it's nice to be home! There was a slight awkwardness, then she said, not that I don't like being at your place.... and H chimed in, but this is your home. Well, my place up in the hills feels like my home...(but said with less than 100% conviction.)
Just before leaving soon after he again made it a point to come out on to the balcony and give me a goodbye kiss.
And that was that. I was pleasant and friendly, but not over eager for anything.
Livnlearn.
PS We just had another skipping competition and my maximum was 69 skips. Is this an OK average or am I severely unfit?? D won of course...
"The unexamined life is not worth living" - Socrates
D and I were just having lunch when she started telling me that H's landlord was 'mad'. I asked her why, and she said, they keep changing their plans about when they go and and are coming down. (So D's lift gets mucked about.)
I said, they are just H's landlord's family, they are not obliged to run their lives according to our requirements, we are lucky that they are able to give you a lift so much of the time, from door to door, no less, where there is no public transport alternative for the whole distance.
Then she said, at least you 'got' another day...
I said, we had arranged that you come down Tuesday evening, as you couldn't get a lift, your Dad brought you down Wednesday morning, I didn't 'get' another day. Anyway, I trust you had a nice time up there, with your Dad?
She picks up on all H's little rants and skewed views. Does H really see this as my having 'got' or 'won' one more day without D???
I really hate all this 'division' and 'sharing' of our daughter, it is never totally comfortable. When H was here over Christmas and asked me about my plans, I stupidly said, in front of D, that I would like, and had planned for, 4 to 5 days without D, which came out sounding awful to D, no doubt.
And really, it is not about my not wanting D, but more that I want to be able to plan something in my life, as what I do with D will not always be exactly the same as what I do if she is not here.
I trust D knows very well how much I love her and will not take things the wrong way. Or maybe I need to tell her in so many words? I thought my H knew that I loved him too...
Livnlearn
"The unexamined life is not worth living" - Socrates
Quote: I trust D knows very well how much I love her and will not take things the wrong way. Or maybe I need to tell her in so many words? I thought my H knew that I loved him too...
Thinking about that one, I decided to tell D quite frankly about my POV. I drew her aside, and said, I want you to know that I never 'don't want you in this house', but when I make an arrangement with your father I want him to stick to it, so that I can plan my life. I might have errands to do, visits planned etc, so it is nothing to do with wanting or not wanting you around.
And D replied, I know that!!!
Phew!
I guess I need to get into the habit of making my POV/feelings clearer to those around me, instead of letting them assume it is obvious. And where lack of clarity could lead to misunderstanding.
Livnlearn
"The unexamined life is not worth living" - Socrates
Hi LnL - I like the way you clarified things with D - it would be unfair to her if she was kept in confusion. Sounds like you may need a few scripts handy for times when she is repeating H's rants...
...I knew that, judging by the smell whenever she returns home! 
