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[barneyfife]

GEL posted in another thread:
Your H is like mine in the fact that neither of them ever have to guess that we find them attractive and "want" them physically right? We show them constantly by wanting to ML with them.
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Bingo! That's why I don't think it's a M/W thing but a HD/LD thing. A LDS may want to be "attractive" to his/her S, but HDS needs what she describes above.

Social sterotypes may make a LDH feel that he's a wimp because he doesn't want sex all the time w/his HDW, but a LDW will make her HDH feel wimpy because he's not strong/intelligent/disciplined/serious enough to refrain from wanting sex "all the time". What's the difference?

[Corri]

HP:

My H had normal readings of testosterone, last time we checked which was 6 yrs ago. So what does this mean? Why is my actual drive and desire for sex higher than his?

Because it isn't. I would guess that your 1/2 of your horniness comes from knowing you can't have what you want, when you want it. Meaning, 1/2 of your horniness comes from knowing you do not control the sex situation -- just like the moment I decide to go on a diet, I crave every single food that I know I cannot have on my diet.

Is it real? Sure feels real, and there isn't one thing you could do to convice me otherwise.

If this were a truly physical drive for you, you could take care of things yourself to take the edge off. But that isn't what you want.

Am I within range? (work with me, this is going somewhere.)

Corri

[OG_Lou]

HP this is off topic to this thread. I was going to post this on your thread but it was locked

Why is MR Honeypot so tired? Or why do some people think going to bed is only for sleep.

HP, you wrote several times that your H is tired a lot and he has to make several trips to the bathroom at night. Both of these symptoms are similar to my mine, as you know. To help your H a little, I was thinking he is not going into DEEP ENOUGH sleep just like my condition prior to my sleep study. I am no expert but the way I understand it if a person is in a deep state of sleep his / her urine production almost stops, IE fewer bathroom trips, more rested throught the day, able to stay awake longer in the evening. In a less deep state of sleep the urine production keep going, IE more bathroom trips, tired during the day, wanting to go to bed earlier in the evening.

I started taking 2mg of Doxazosin Mesylate ( about the minimum dose ) and cut my bathroom trips in half. It also lowered my blood pressure 5 or 10 points. After my sleep study and subsequent usage of the CPAP blower I almost never get up and go to the bathroom.

My point is, If your H is a snorer, or a restless sleeper, maybe he is more tired than he should normally be compared to if he slept more soundly through the night. Maybe if he slept better he would take more time for you in the evening when the children are in bed. Just some things you wrote previously had me wondering if I could help you and Mr. HP. The two things (Doxazosin Mesylate & CPAP) certainly have helped me sleep much more soundly. No need to reply.

OG Lou Go to bed around 1AM, up at 7:30AM

[honeypot]

I definitely think there is some merit to this idea, Corri.

However, it aint all of the picture. I have been HD as far as I can remember and in EVERY relationship I've ever had, not just this one. When H was still very interested in sex, there was no corresponding dropoff in my libido. It remained strong as ever and we just rocked the house more frequently, lol.

I have always remembered feeling physically horny. My sex drive seems to have been bodily-based my whole life. Now that I am married and in the most intimate R I've ever had, I can tell you that the line between I love him and I want him is often blurred--to the point that I couldn't tell you which came first. So I'm not going to say that my horniness never comes from my mind--of course it does. But give me 3 days without sex and I get irritable. This is not because I am not getting what I want; it's because my body is wanting and needing release.

Regarding this:

If this were a truly physical drive for you, you could take care of things yourself to take the edge off.

We are Catholic and do not masturbate; it is against our religion.
So the fact that I am dependent on him for sexual release, quite literally, creates a "I am furious when he holds out" dynamic that I am quite aware of.
Not really sure what to do about that. As whacko as it may sound to others, this is truly what we believe and what we have decided to live. Corri, it is EASY for him. He has said those words. He doesn't ever have the urge to do this. (of course not! I overload his sexual desire, he's workin on, like, negative 4 on the desire scale)
However, it is very difficult for me--it is a struggle to not do this, a mighty one. He has expressed sympathy and wants me to come to him rather than be tempted, but when the rubber hits the road he is less than cooperative.

Butttttt, even having said all that, there is most certainly an element of truth to what you said. I want it cause I can't have it. Sure. We are all built that way, as you said. If he suddenly turned into a horndog, well first of all we'd have a lot more free and easy sex, but secondly I would probably guess that my intense horniness would die down and be left with a more normal feeling--one that does not take up so much mental space. FOR SURE you are correct about that.

If you haven't noticed, I like to be in control and I don't like to be told No.
Now, in my marriage, I am NOT in control of many many things, not just the sex, and that is the God's honest truth. But I do like it. And I have a hard time accepting no on anything but I do. Or I find a way to work around it. My H is amazed at me and once called me a freight train--when I get an idea into my head, I will see it through, even if the odds are against me.
Last summer, I wanted to go away on a weekend trip with him but we had no $$. I was bummed for a while, then decided to look at my house, objectively, and see if there was anything that could be of worth to anyone else. The only thing I could come up with was 2 sets of Ralph Lauren drapes in my bedroom. I took them down, sold them on Ebay for 150 bucks, and had my weekend away. H never even noticed the white blinds I installed instead, lol. So does that give you an additional peek into my sicko mind?!

Take care and thank you for the thoughts.

HP

[honeypot]

NOP,
That is infinitely more clear! Thank you.

Yes, I do agree with you that I have some bitterness in me still over what he has turned out to be. It is not necessarily a "traditional" notion; that would imply that gender differences are culturally-based, only, and that is not the case. Men and women are different, in almost every way..physically, chemically, emotionally, etc.
So it stands to reason that dealing with an LD man is going to be quite similar, in many ways, to an LD woman but the differences are going to be GLARING. That was the point of my original post, although I see that my message was diluted and misunderstood due to the fact that I was being bitchy.

I think a large part of the remaining problem is that I haven't quite forgiven him yet for being LD. He was not this way when I married him. In fact, he wasn't ANYTHING that he is now. He has changed so drastically that he is a shadow of the guy I met and married. I have adapted to all of his changes except this one. It is this last one that cuts the deepest and pisses me off the most. You may remember that I dumped a boyfriend of FOUR years right before meeting my H. The reason? He was LD and I had lost much of my feelings for him.
So it was quite important to me to not repeat that scenario.

I do realize that I need to 'forgive' him for how things have turned out. It is not that I am holding on to loads of resentment over this; honestly it only crops up occasionally in my mind. I was just making a point of Yeah!!, as I was responding to JJ's post.
I would liken it to a person who is married to someone with OCD; they are freakin irritated that their spouse has to check the stove 10 times before they leave anywhere. It doesn't make them stop loving them or want to leave but it makes everyday life difficult at times.
That's how I view my husband's LD.

Jenny, I am so sorry to have steamrolled over your thread with my own topic of discussion. Please forgive me, friend!

HP

[MJontheMend]

What I think that you need to do, Jenny, is tell your husband why you are upset and find out why he feels that he is a piece of meat. I certainly would never want MrsNOP to feel that way. I know for a fact that she doesn't. How would I know that?

The reason my H feels like he is a "piece of meat" is that he feels like he has valid reasons for not wanting to have sex with me. Since I will not accept job stress, seasonal allergies, need to exercise more and poor sleep habits etc. as reasons for not having sex with me, I am being insensitive to his feelings from his POV. Since I am being insensitive to his feelings and I want to have sex with him, I am just treating him like a "piece of meat". Basically, I am treating him like a "piece of meat" because I want to have sex with him when he doesn't want to have sex with me. Basically, I am treating him like a "piece of meat" because I have a higher sex drive than him.

I should mention that I didn't do anything physical to merit this remark, I simply suggested sex in a straightforward manner. He rejected me by saying he was not in the mood due to job stress. In the spirit of persistence and good humor, a couple minutes later I said "Are you sure you don't want me to show you my breasts? I think they're looking good tonight.".

*****************************************************************UPDATE

Last night, I told him that I found his "piece of meat" comment particularly troubling because it indicated a bad state of mind because he was seeing me as in some way "bad" for wanting to have sex with him. He told me that his mental state had regressed over the past week due to job stress. He told me that part of the reason for his recent insomnia was he was trying to avoid being in bed with me at a time of the evening when I might try to initiate sex.

I was a bit stunned by this remark because it was such a regression, so I didn't handle myself as I should have regarding his next remark. He said " You know I'm having a lot of stress right now. I don't know why you can't see that this is a unique circumstance and cut me some slack. Could you just lay off for a week or two?". He said this in a sort of authoritarian way, kind of like Lou Grant talking to Mary Tyler Moore. My knee-jerk reaction was first to feel guilty for being a sexual pest and then to get angry for being treated like a sexual pest. I pulled up my calendar and said "Fine. I'll see you on 12/22.".

I regretted responding in this manner almost immediately for two reasons.
1) My sex life is doomed if I accept job stress as a valid reason for low drive. My H is almost always experiencing job stress due to his high-strung personality.

2) I was going to have to go 2 weeks without sex (3 total since we've been on a dry spell).

We ended up having another discussion about sex and stress in the middle of the night. My H's job stress issue is complicated by the fact that he kind of blames me for his stress because I was overly optimistic about some financial matters. So we end up with two different ways of looking at the same set of circumstances.

LD Way: He is not in the mood for sex because of financial/job stress. Since I am partially to blame for the stress he is under, I should be understanding about his low drive.

HD Way: He is subconsciously punishing me for my poor financial planning by withholding sex. This makes me furious because I believe that withholding sex is not a fair way to fight in a marriage.

Of course, the truth is somewhere in between.

I must admit that it would be an understatement to say that I did not hold on to myself very well during this discussion. I am out of practice and I was over-tired and taken off-guard by his remarks.

Somehow we came to an agreement that I would still "lay-off" for a week or two, but once he resolves his current stress, we will start having sex on a schedule.

The positive sign I continue to see at this juncture despite all regression is that my H believes or at least wants to believe that a HD lifestyle is the better/healthier lifestyle. He is just having a hard time making it work for himself so he makes excuses like someone who wants to be in shape but keeps falling back on negative thought patterns that send him to the donut store rather than the gym.

I know my inability to deal with this setback in a PM perfect manner is at least partially due to the fact that my H's recent model behavior outside of bed has caused me to become more emotionally-fused to him. I've allowed myself to enjoy Mr. Cuddles, so now it's harder to risk giving up other aspects of my relationship for sex.

[MJontheMend]

It is not necessarily a "traditional" notion; that would imply that gender differences are culturally-based, only, and that is not the case. Men and women are different, in almost every way..physically, chemically, emotionally, etc.
So it stands to reason that dealing with an LD man is going to be quite similar, in many ways, to an LD woman but the differences are going to be GLARING

I'm going to try to explain my POV on this issue again. In the history of human biology, men on average have had more testosterone and therefore a higher level of horniness than women ON AVERAGE. I am probably like the average man in terms of my frequency and strength of drive. I have been this way since early adolescence. If I have sex on Monday, I'm okay on Tuesday, I want it on Wednesday, I get cranky on Thursday etc. I was actually sort of amazed to discover how regular my sexual drive is recently. I never really tracked it until I joined this board.

The thing that makes my situation different than the HDM is that I am also, I believe, biologically programmed to expect men to have a higher drive than me. In simplistic terms, I mostly want to be f*cked rather than to f*ck. My sex drive is high but passive. I think the HDM on the board could understand this if they realized that they probably have an opposite but proportional desire to be the passive rather than the aggressive sexual partner. I think men sometimes avoid thinking about sexual dynamics in this way because wanting to be the "bottom" can verge on the homo-erotic. My desire is probably 80% "bottom", 20% "top". It is frustrating for me to have to be the "top" in terms of initiation the majority of the time. I can only push my "top" desire up to a certain percentage of my drive. I am left unsatisfied with even reasonably frequent sex, if I am unable to fulfill my "bottom" desire. It is completely simplistic to think that just a certain number of orgasms per week whether partner or self-generated is enough to satisfy someone's drive. If this were true, why would anyone suffer the social stigmatism of homosexuality?

[karen1]

JJ:

Thank you for saying that. I also have a high desire to be sexually intimate in the passive sense. Incidentally my H far prefers me on top and me initiating so I need a high degree of sexual frustration, desire and guts to pull this off in a climate where I question if I am desired at all. My getting the opportunity to climb on top and "do my business" regularly won't satisfy my true needs either. Biological sex drive is a pretty small part of the overall sitch. What does your H say about this?

Karen

[MJontheMend]

I realize that I probably mis-stated my case when I implied that most men have and %80 desire to be the "top" and a %20 desire to be the "bottom". I have no idea what the true proportion in an average man might be. I didn't mean anything specific in terms of what happens in bed when I used the terms "top" and "bottom". I was thinking in terms of a psychological state of mind. The desire or urge to be driving the action forward as "top" and the desire or longing to be driven forward in the action as "bottom". Of course, literally being on top during intercourse does usually put you in the natural position of being the "top", but not necessarily. I can easily imagine a scenario in which I was on top physically but not psychologically. For instance, if my H was moving my hips with his hands and talking "dirty" to me.

I would say my H likes to be the "top" just as much as the average guy, just not as frequently. The fact that I want sex more frequently than he does throws off this sexual dynamic for him too. If he's not feeling horny enough to be the "top", he might decide that he's horny enough to be the "bottom" if I'm willing to accept responsibility for the sexual encounter and be the "top". However, too much of being the "bottom" and relying on my horniness starts to make him feel uncomfortably unmanly, since he is in some sense being f*cked by his wife. And as I said, I like being the "top" sometimes, but not most of the time.

What I should have said instead of saying that NOPkins was more successful because he was more horny than me, was that he is more successful than me because it's easier to get your dance partner out on the floor if you want to lead. Of course, I am working under the assumption that NOPkins is a HDM with a relatively low level of "bottom" desire. By this I mean he doesn't have a fantasy life that frequently features dominant women or he is content to leave such desires in the realm of fantasy. Heterosexual women who are naturally HD and "top" oriented are rare. Heterosexual men who have the misfortune to be predominantly "bottom" oriented generally have to go without. I am forcing NOPkins to concede my argument on some level because he admitted in a previous post that it would take mega-mega-mojo for a woman to use a "strap-on" and this is the most obvious literal example of a woman being a "top".(I feel the need to repeat here that my H is only as "bottom" oriented as the average guy. He is not interested in strap-on play, though he does appreciate the occasional "command" .

[NOPkins]

Hi, Jenny.

Quote:
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know my inability to deal with this setback in a PM perfect manner is at least partially due to the fact that my H's recent model behavior outside of bed has caused me to become more emotionally-fused to him. I've allowed myself to enjoy Mr. Cuddles, so now it's harder to risk giving up other aspects of my relationship for sex.
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Argh.

So he slimed his way out of a minor bit of pressure. Just because you agreed initially to a hiatus because you got blind-sided does not mean you don't go back to the table for some re-negotiation.

"Hubby, your complaints about stress are bull. Statistically, there are going to be less that 3 short periods during our entire life together that are going to be stress free. Let's talk about a schedule to reduce the stress of deciding when we can have sex. Frankly, I am sick of the variability."

You might want to be a bit more tactful than me.

Also, I wouldn't worry so much about "fusion". Ultimately, you want to get to a place where both spouses work toward pleasing each other because it is what both spouses want to do.

It is okay to love your husband, even if you have to occasionally knock some sense into him :-) He has done a fair bit of growing up that last few months. He has come to realize that you are a damn fine woman. Imagine what the future holds for you two now versus a year ago. Don't be discouraged by the potholes in the road.

-NOPkins-