In my H defense, I know I started the whole sexual rejection feelings. I didn't understand how important that communication was to him in the starting years of our marriage. Wish I could have done it over.
But it does take two people to make up the dynamic of a marriage. I've done the DB coach a few times and it was very helpful.
One thing they said was for me to stop trying to FIX the relationship. I also view it to stop thinking about everything that I don't like about it too.
FIgure out the hot buttons and don't push them.
Your point is good about knowing each other so well in marriage you can sometimes read each others mind and body. Very true.
My H is a much higher drive than me and his whole thing is doing it: a lot, positions, etc. Which is great. But kissing, hugging, romance, talking, teasing, flirting, etc. was not his stong point (maybe for a few days only, then he'd get mad, stop doing it, because we didn't have wild sex as a result) only boob and crotch grabbing is considered fun to him.
He is expanding and trying, for which I appreciate.
Now, I accept what he wants and have learned to stop being demanding about all the romance I want to lead up to and make sex emotionally great for me. I appreciate when and what he does for me and try to think of what I can do for him (kids and full time working makes it tough). Doing that seems to keep me in a positive, giving place and then when times are right we can talk about our desires.
I used to HAVE to have all the romance and forplay or I wouldn't do it. Emotionally I wasn't ready and I'd feel like a prostitute. So I rarely let myself feel like that because it was AWFUL. But things got so bad in marriage I decided to "just do it" not near the amount that he wants, but anyway because he is a good man and I love him and want his needs to be met.
Wanting someone sexually starts way out of the bedroom though, at least for me. Nop said it well here so many times. I could have sex with anyone. But emotionally connecting with your H is what makes it fulfilling and brings intimacy.
I guess for LD that starts out of the bedroom and for HD is starts in the bedroom. That's how I look at it now and I'm wiling to start in the bedroom, for him. My feelings are not there like H would like, but hopefully in time they will come along.
Over the past couple of days I have put a lot of thought into your respective relationships. I have some ideas that I would like to throw out to you, but today has not been supportive of my need to do something other than work :-)
I will post those ideas in whatever detail I can muster, sometime over the weekend. In the mean time.
Have a good weekend.
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
I think probably HD personalities may be similar. When arguing they go for the jugular (spelling?). Maybe not screaming but with incredible intensity and piercing words. ha ha That strength of character is what makes HD who they are. Srong people and strong sex drives. I read in several places that usually strong leaders and people in power have very strong sex drives. They better have some understanding and loving spouses.
I thought I would express my feelings so you could see the possibility of how your H might feel sexually having been given the label of LD. I do prefer more the lower drive in the relationship. So my H is a 10 and I am an 8. That is not...blah, blah. Yes, we are made to feel like we are very unsexy (as I say this with tears). It kind of sucks any feelings of sexiness right out of you. Oh, we are unsexy plenty of times. Granted. But we could be sexy a lot more times if we were constantly reminded of how much we don't want sex. Even after having it!
I've decided not to be defined by a title or even by how my H sees me. His perception is true to him, ok he can have it. But his perception about me and how he describes me IS NOT ME!
I have been learning how to break out of that. I fail a lot but everyday I get up and start over.
Your H may not be there. I went by and believed what H said about me and how H saw me. We didn't have sex a lot for many reasons. I should have been more mature and handled it all differently. But it was not because I wasn't interested in him, as he firmly believes.
But the past is the past and I live everyday now as to who I am. I fail may times, but I get back up and live in the now.
Good for you that you apoligized for the negative things you said about him and that you are not being negative anymore. It will take some time living a different way for him to believe it. On all our part and in both directions.
Quote: However, please remember that after you had wild animal sex with one of us about 40 times, you would find yourself bored and LD and no longer so enamored of our charms.
40 times? Lessee, that's about, um.... 30 YEARS worth of sex to some of us!
Choc., who just renewed his season tickets to the front row box seats of the Observatory...
JustJenny wrote: ---------------- I didn't really take NOP that way either. I'm just sort of cheating by using the quote about getting bored after 40x to argue in an absurd fashion against his claim that HD/HD wouldn't work. ----------------
HD/HD can work, it just produces greater friction in the relationship.
Imagine two HD's Both needs the other to be aggressive otherwise nothing works. Both are adamant that the other must initiate. In real life, the examples are much more subtle, but the notion of greater friction has been observed by me. Maybe it was a one of a kind fluke, but since I don't believe in the commonness of the relationally unique, I would imagine that friction like I participated in, and have observed in other high drive relationships, is fairly common.
Coffee break is over, back on my head.
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Quote: If you don't like what I said, then say so. I don't think what you are doing is even remotely entertaining.
I apologize. I realize that I am being flip about something I should be taking seriously, but I am in the grips of some sort of nihilistic despair about the issue at the moment.
Let me explain my emotional reaction to your "coaching". At this moment in time, I see you and Mrs.NOP as the one example of a truly successful resolution of the SSM problem on this board. Therefore, perhaps the sensible reaction I should have to your advice would be to simply swallow it whole, thinking "It worked for them. It should work for us too." and thank you kindly for taking the trouble of wanting to help those still in need of help. OTH, I think to myself that it must be kind of lonely being in your position. If I were you, I would feel more secure in my success if others were to achieve similar success through similar means. Therefore, you may be offering me advice that was valid for you, but not so valid for me. I am particularly suspicious of advice when it is based on circular logic such as the reasoning that the possibility for "wild animalistic" sex and the possibility for a committed long term relationship are mutually exclusive. This just doesn't ring true for me. As a life-long member of the HD tribe, I know that factors outside my current relationship can affect my drive in a positive as well as negative ways. Perhaps if I were married to a HD man, familiarity would breed lowered drives for both of us and we would settle into a not so exciting routine, but sometimes when the stars were aligned just right, when the cleavage flash collided with the stalled elevator or the free hot tub upgrade collided with the blizzard or the new leather jacket collided with the hip-hop on the radio, maybe there would be two of us with that glazed-eye look of animal hunger ready to forget it all and f*ck because once again as in the immortal words of Foreigner "It feels like the first time.".
I guess what I'm trying to say is that you and Mrs.NOP have what you want and I am very happy for you (really!), but I might not want what you want and I might not be able to get what I want in the way you got what you want. I need to muddle through on my own. I hope that is okay even if what I have to say isn't always in the spirit of this board.
Once again, I apologize for being flip and rude. I know you were trying to be helpful and I am some sort of ungrateful wretch.
Sincerely,
JJ and her alter-ego MM
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I have read about what the NOPS do and I would like to chime in with I think there is a 3rd category. That category is ND, No Desire. That is where I would put my own wife. If Mrs. Nops is light years ahead of where my wife is right now. I think that with LD, there is at least the hope of things getting even better. But with ND, it looks pretty darn bleak.
From Beverely DeAgeliss's books, "Before Marriage, try to make sure you are as sexually compatible. NEVER marry someone with a vastly different sex drive, you are ALREADY incompatible!"
Jenny wrote: -------------- I guess what I'm trying to say is that you and Mrs.NOP have what you want and I am very happy for you (really!), but I might not want what you want and I might not be able to get what I want in the way you got what you want. I need to muddle through on my own. I hope that is okay even if what I have to say isn't always in the spirit of this board. --------------
I completely understand your being leery of a one-size-fits-all solution. I would be as well. Believe it or not, I am not trying to shove that kind of solution at you. However, by the fact that we are all humans here (at least I think so), there are most certainly variations on a common theme. We all want to be 'special' unfortunately, we aren't.
As an outside observer that has read most if not all of what you have written, I 'see' some things about your relationship that you might not. I am sure you can do the same with mine. This is what 'drives' me to try and help.
My experiences are wide and varied. Since many of them were not positive, I have tried to salvage what good I could from them, mostly in the form of wisdom. I try to pass that on if it appears pertinent. I am not trying to come across as some kind of moral gauge, nor do I want to be a moral relativist. I simply try to point out what I have learned from my experiences.
I appreciate how important your idea of sex is to you. I certainly don't want to, nor do I have any intent to encroach upon it. What I have been trying to say to you is that I think that you are going to have to modify it *somewhat* in order to get to a good place with your husband.
The very last thing I want to do is to hurt anyone in an effort to help.
I will leave you to muddle, and I sincerely wish you and your husband all the best in your efforts.
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Quote: I read in several places that usually strong leaders and people in power have very strong sex drives. They better have some understanding and loving spouses.
Again, it goes both ways, NG. In order to have withstood repeated sexual rejection (have you ever been sexually rejected before? Do you know how much it stings?) the HD partner must also be understanding and loving. After all, I'm still here and I still love my H as much as ever--if that's not being understanding, I don't know what is!
Quote: Yes, we are made to feel like we are very unsexy (as I say this with tears).
Aww, look, an LD person by DEFINITION is not unsexy. That's ridiculous. There are plenty of HD people who are unsexy (just look at Austin Powers...did that get a laugh? A smile??) and plenty of LD people who are sexy as hell. Sexiness has to do with your attitude and behavior, not your desire level. Certain LD behaviors can be unsexy, sure, and certain HD behaviors are unsexy as well.
The only reason I mentioned my H's unsexy behavior is that, in my current situation, I am the one whose sexual energy keeps the relationship going. If you were to take away my sexual energy, the sex relationship would die. The sex relationship is what makes this a MARRIAGE. Otherwise it would be a union of two people who love each other platonically and live together as fantastic roommates. It bothers me that he leaves this entire thing up to me and acts unsexy to boot. How does he expect me to keep my desire strong and keep this a MARRIAGE all by myself? Does he think that he is so irresistable that I will find a way around all of his undesirable behavior and desire him anyway? That is a pretty big assumption and risk to take, imo! I think we are all obligated to keep ourselves attractive and sexy to our partners. I realize that is a pretty outlandish claim to make but it is my own opinion.
I have no doubt that your husband thinks you are a hot momma. He wouldn't be after you all the time if you weren't.
I loved what you wrote about getting up and starting again. You know, I have seen my husband do this more times than I could count. Fail miserably and then the next day he is right back in the ring, ready to try again. It never occurred to me--in my self centered view of things--how difficult this must be. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. I mean, I get back into things too.....but I'm not the one who just had the sh*t knocked outta me. Believe me, I know I can be formidable when I want to. I'm not proud of how I have made my H feel. I don't mean to kick him when he's down but I get tired of the same old failure. I know that you do too, although it is in a different area.
About the emotional connection, I wanted to say that the two sides both want the EC outside the bedroom. It's just that, with an HD person, you are likely to see them trying to obtain the EC through physical contact, particularly sexy contact. This is how I feel emotionally close to my husband. That and talking and sharing our days and such. So it is not all about physical touch. But NOTHING makes me feel closer to him than a good hug or long kiss. Throw in a butt grab and I am happy for hours. No joke! So I don't think it's that you and your H are that different; it's that you have different ideas about what constitutes emotional closeness. He feels close to you when he touches you and you feel close to him when you talk to him or spend time with him, nonsexually. Both of you need your criteria to be met before you hit the sheets and then you will have a grand ol' time, emotionally and physically.
