This post is going to make me look like a "suck-up" to the HDW. Let's get this out of the way up front. I AM a suck-up to HDW. There...that feels better.
I see what HP and JJ are saying and relate to much of what they're feeling. So much that I question the real difference in their HDW/LDH sitchs and mine.
NOP, you say that you got to passion (which I define as "feeling wanted") with the Mrs. by continuing to work the schedule. I hope that's a guaranteed result for all us schedulers.
barney wrote: ------------- NOP, you say that you got to passion (which I define as "feeling wanted") with the Mrs. by continuing to work the schedule. I hope that's a guaranteed result for all us schedulers.
For me, the schedule is pretty empty without it. -------------
I can't guarantee that the sun will shine tomorrow :-) The schedule is nothing more than a tool. I have seen beautiful houses constructed with nothing more than hammer, nails and a hand saw. I have seen beautiful homes constructed with every available piece of tool gadgetry. To examine them closely, you can't tell the difference in the finished product. I think the result comes from the effort and skill that goes into the work, not necessarily the tool used.
As tools go, I think the schedule is a good one.
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Quote: That is why I am pushing for the dreaded schedule.
For the record, he is the one refusing to cooperate with scheduled sex. I first mentioned it to him in September of 2002. He was resistent then and he remains so today. Last week he wanted to use the schedule idea to his advantage (it's not a scheduled day) on Sunday and then by Tuesday was saying, "Schedules are made to be broken." In between 9/02 and the present day I have mentioned scheduling sex several times and each time he is totally opposed to the idea. These last weeks he has SEEMED more open to the idea, but I now believe he was just buying himself time. Within that time, he wants me to see that he doesn't need a schedule--he's willing to have lots of sex without it. I've told him why I want a sched (to remove the stigma) but he's not hearing that part yet, I don't think.
So for now, we will continue on with what we are doing. A schedule is not necessary to the success but it sure would help him get the #*%! over himself.
Quote: I think that he wants to do that! I think that he is scared to try.
Agreed.
Quote: My requirement for MrsNOP, ultimately, was that she want to be there (in bed).
Lemme ask you this: How did you know she wanted to be there? What were the signals that you looked for? Perhaps I am missing his "I want to be here with you" signals. Honestly, NOP, all I have to go on is maybe a passionate peck sometime during the night and the inevitable ZZZZZZZZ's at bedtime. His desire is so fleeting that it is hard for me to catch it. It doesn't help that he treats a lot of this as a joke. (which I believe is another LDH trait--more so than the LDW's--I know, I'm full of generalizations eh) The other night I suggested that we give each other a goodnight hug and kiss before we lay down at night. I said, "H, I believe that you fall asleep on accident the majority of the time and then you find it impossible to wake up and desire sex with me." Him: ( relief flooding his voice): Oh that is so true! I don't mean to fall asleep but I happen to be the kind of person who falls asleep, a deep sleep, in seconds. Unless you beat me to bed there is no chance I'll be awake when you get here.
He's not exaggerating that--I usually come to bed within a couple of minutes after him and he is snoring every single time..no matter how horny he may have been before laying down. So back to the story: HP: If we were standing, I KNOW that things would heat up--they always do! That way, I wouldn't get my feelings hurt that you fall asleep on me and you wouldn't have to feel guilty that you fell asleep again. MrHP: Yeah that'd be nice. HP: So whaddya say, do you want to plan on staying upright til I get in bed? (again, folks, it is a matter of minutes, he could sit upright in bed if he wanted to) MrHP: hahaha. Yeah, staying upright so I don't fall asleep. Man you are creative! hahaha. HP: ( somewhat disheartened) Uh, I'm being serious. MrHP: Oh so now I can't lay down when I'm tired?! HP: Noooooo. Well, that's not how I intended you to take it. You know what, do what you want. I didn't mean to make it sound like you can't lay down, I was just thinking of ways to get around this sleep thing. I think that your desire for me is a lot stronger than what I realize and the constant falling asleep throws me off. MrHP: The falling asleep does NOT mean I don't desire you. It's just that once I lay down, any desire I have goes out the window and all I want to do is sleep. HP: Right. That's why I was thinking of ways around it. MrHP: heh heh. Yeah. Well, I guess we could do that once in a while.
So he treats this whole thing as this funny little pet project of mine. I believe that he hears me say how important it is but I don't think that he can admit the extent to which he is failing at this because it fcuks with his manhood too much.
Quote: For the record, there was quite a long spell where she only "showed up" with no desire or passion. It was from there that we eventually faced our problems and worked through them. It was not due to my 'super drive', it was due to our tenacious personalities that we made it this far.
I see what you are saying, but this is an area in which the sex of the LD partner makes all the difference in the world. This is what I keep repeating and you seem to be coming back to me saying that it doesn't matter, when it clearly does. If the LD partner is male, then just doing is a whole different ballgame. Then it is a matter of the wife arousing the man, which sounds similar to an HD male arousing his wife but IT ISN'T. Most LD men will employ a whole host of tactics to disguise the fact that they have no erection, anger and sleeping being a few of them. It pisses them off that their wives are demanding not only sex but sex in which they have to get hard, be present and be ACTIVE. They want to be passive at that moment (and show up with no desire and just accomodate) but they cannot by definition do that. So they emotionally stonewall to get their wife off their back and avoid having to face the ultimate embarrassment and shame of not having the proper amount of mojo to get it up. An LDW can show up with no desire, and may or may not ever fully get into it. I'm sure there were many a night when you were starting in which the Mrs had to fake it til she made it. This is not possible with an LDH and he will put the brakes on the whole operation.
Since I'm on a roll, let me also say this: I don't think that what you had or have was a schedule. It was an agreement to have sex every single day. That is a schedule in the loose sense of the word, but in the greater scheme of things I would not expect the same sorts of results with a, say, MWF schedule. The reason is, of course, that with your current setup there is not a day in which MrsNOP is "off". Her mind is always going to be in a sexual place because you have sex every day. My H has absolutely ruled out everyday sex. He will not even entertain this idea, because of the above reason--he cannot just show up on a day when he might not be feeling the strongest desire and have me take over. His erection (and therefore his pretty strong desire) is a necessary component, not an option. The fear and anxiety this causes results in feelings of resentment (She wants too much) and inadequacy in him. There are ways around it with the LDW because her strong desire is not a necessary component to the process.
And, you know, it is not even the actual desire that is the problem--it is the perception that he HAS to get hard or the plane aint getting off the ground--that fuels the shutdown in him. He doesn't want to get started with showing his fleeting desire because he is not sure he has the mojo to carry it through to completion. This is not an issue in your home because MrsNOP is not the one whose desire has to be strong enough to carry the day--yours is. This knowledge freaks my H out and causes him to not act on whatever smidgin (how the heck do you spell that word anyway?!) of desire he might be feeling.
Quote: It is a good thing to notice the positives, but address the negatives, you must.
I'm not trying to be a pest, but honestly a few days ago everyone was telling me to back off and chill out! I thought I was on a better track and now I'm not sure...can you advise? My thought process is not that I am totally giving up (can you even imagine me saying such a thing!) but that I am giving up on pushing for more forward progress. He is clearly not going to give that right now. I think I would like to build on the progress we've made and chill on the rest. Corri said to me that her husband would nag, she'd make changes and there he'd be back nagging again. I am the same way. I don't WANT to be this person. I am mostly satisfied with the way things are. If they start to go backwards, you can bet that I will be right there letting him know about it. But I just have no more motivation to get him to see what it is I want. He's not deaf, he's heard me and he doesn't want to cooperate.
I also still don't have a clear idea of what "backing off" LOOKS like in real life. I am assuming that means to chill on the heavy talks, etc, so that is going to be my first step. This is a big one for me! It is going to be very difficult. In the meantime, I will continue to work on my goals and encourage him as best as I can to let whatever desire he has outta the cage.
Quote: Why do you assume that maintaining an easy good humor throughout the day and being able to generate sexual heat from a simple end of the day snuggle on a regular basis is the "easy", "pragmatic" choice?
I think of it as a pragmatic choice as compared to what sounded (to me) as a more idealized occurance. In the same way that I think there is a difference between the meals we cook throughout the year (pragmatic) and the meals we cook on special holidays (idealized).
I don't know that I asserted that it was the "easy" choice. If being considerate & loving toward each other on a daily basis were easy, I think more people would be doing so.
The sexual heat isn't generated only during the climbing under the covers, that seems to be the culmination of our interactions with each other throughout the day. The "simple end of the day snuggle" includes kissing, carressing, oral sex, etc.
Quote: The reason that NOP can get it up night after night to "make love" to you is he is SUPER-HD.
I could be misreading, but this sounded snarky to me. If that wasn't your intention, I apologize for the misreading. If it was your intention to poke a bit, why?
What would happen if you did initiate every day with Mr. "No schedule"? What if when he said he was tired you really worked hard not to be mad and offered him a menu of choices? I realize that you don't really want it every day and I realize that a lot of his effort would be half-hearted at best but maybe it would expose some of the reasons that a schedule makes sense. Just a thought.
Karen, Describe your imaginary menu of choices. I can't even picture what you are thinking of...
When my H says he is tired, he is usually already asleep. So for me to offer him anything at that point would just make him mad. There are TONS of times that he wakes up on his own and notices the hot mama-san in bed with him and initiates and that's fine. If it is HIS idea to stir from his stupid stupor, that's fine.
Here is something for ya: If I could get to him before the stupor falls upon him, and initiate blatantly--which for him would involve my naked body touching his, me grabbing his youknowwhat, and perhaps some sexy talk, he would ML to me 80% of the time. Maybe even higher, I've just never tried it on a long term basis. I just cannot seem to keep him awake long enough to form any genuine interest in me and he is not fond of the "foreplay outside the bedroom" idea to keep him primed for the upcoming action.
You know, sex is in the mind, it really is. My H wants it to originate and reside in his body only, if that makes any sense. He doesn't want to think of sex, he voluntarily pushes sexy thoughts away and so at night all he can think about is sleep.
So tell me what you have in mind for his menu--I'm up for suggestions!
My H is similar in that his version of "desire" only occurs as a result of his aroused p*nis waking up his brain to do something. He doesn't do foreplay outside the bedroom for the most part and will opt for sleep over sex because that is what his body tells him to do. Never mind that the fact he is so tired is something he chooses because of the way he chooses to live - overly scheduled, busy etc...
What I meant by a menu is.... What if you initiate every night for an extended period of time and he ML with you 80% of the time and the other 20% when he says "Honestly, HP I am TOO TIRED" you say "Well, how about some oral OR some manual" and when he says, "This is ridiculous, we have just had sex 5 nights in a row" you say, "Well then, how about that schedule of 2/3 nights per week instead." Sounds silly, might work.
We already have sex 2-3 times per week so the frequency is not the issue for me. We have, thank goodness, worked through that and both agree that 2-4 times per week is good for us.
My problem these days (if you can call it that) is that he keeps all his desire locked up tightly inside him and it makes everything so damn boring for me. I never know if it is a Sex Night or not, because I have no idea what is going on inside his head or body. If I played my cards right, I could get sex nearly every time I wanted it but at this point in time, I need him to WANT SEX WITH ME. And I need him to be able to demonstrate that. I am no longer content to take his word that he really does have sexual feelings for me. I am no longer content to have him accomodate me. I don't even think he is truly accomodating me, I think he wants it too, but he GETS something out of maintaining that dynamic, and I don't.
IOW, he has stepped up with the frequency for quite some time now (excluding my pregnancy) and has recently stepped up his efforts to provide greater variety while we are ML (yeah!!) so the missing piece of de puzzle for me is him acting like this is what he WANTS and not that it is something he grudgingly hands over to me, to keep me happy.
My goals for myself are: 1. To back off and maintain a happy atmosphere. Normally, I could back off and become dispassionate, OR I could stay passionate and be pissy that he was ignoring my needs. This is going to sound nutz but the last two nights (yes I'm keeping track!) I have had a very nice atmosphere in our home. I am enjoying his attentions, from the physical improvements, and though they are not leading to ML I am staying positive. In the past, I would have been upset that he was aroused by me early in the evening, I undressed in front of him and he watched with appreciation at bedtime and......nothing. I am REALLY (x100) trying to rein myself in and chill the hell out. I have put him in a position in which he is expected to jump on my every move towards him. This isn't fair. Sure, an HD man would do that but I'm not married to an HD man, nor would I ever be willing to trade my H in for a newer model.
2. At the same time, this is not "do what you want, husband" mode for me. He is still expected to maintain the progress that we have made, as am I. In the past, when I let off the pressure he takes a big breath and relaxes into being asexual. My goal is to develop a way to gently put the pressure back on if he is slipping into this mode, without becoming a shrew or PM'ing him. The problem is, of course, that he becomes accustomed to me reining him back in. The cycle is: He slips, I get him back in line, he makes an effort until I relax, he slips again. Repeat ad nauseum. I still haven't found a way out of this crapper cycle but I am coming up short. Suggestions welcome.
3. Adjust my thinking on what would sassify me (that's a little Clarence Carter for you folks): Right now, I am thinking that I deserve one night a week in which the sex is intentional and he WANTS it. Prior to this, I think I was secretly hanging on to the hope that all of our encounters would be wanted by my H. Well, he may get to the point that he mentally wants it..wants to please me in other words..but there is still going to be the Gotta Keep Momma Happy element. Can't get away from that, so I need to learn to deal with it with a gracious heart.
That's all for now. Oh, to address your original point, my H has never been willing to give me oral or a hj on the nights he is not in the mood. He has a very self centered attitude of "We had sex X number of times this week, that is ENOUGH for her."
I meant the suggestion as a tactic to get him to agree to an actual schedule since you've been wanting him to do that. I really wouldn't want every day sex either. However, given that your H is making more of an effort in several areas you have a better feel for where your next efforts need to go.
There...that feels better.
