I am speaking only for myself here and I want to say that I am not after 'throw me down on the bed' sex when I say aggression. Sure, that'd be great!, but that is not what I am referring to.
NOP, I think the word "aggression" is throwing you off as to what I am talking about. Think about the way you LOOK at MrsNOP when preparing to ML to her. THAT is the aggression I am talking about. A man who is comfortable enough in his own sexual skin to let his feelings and desires clearly show. My husband will look at me with this half-smiley, clearly self conscious look on his face that does nothing for me, sexually speaking. He has done this since I've known him. Perhaps, as you say, I should have married someone else who could have sexually led the experience, which is obviously what I prefer. My husband BORROWS my sexual energy. He does not look at me as if he wants me, or touch me in an urgent way. It is polite and self controlled until I show MY desire and then he springs into life. He is so scared of looking silly that he won't come out of his shell. I guess he'd rather lose me before he'd risk that.
So I am quite certain that you have NO problems showing this form of aggression to MrsNOP. When you look at her and are turned on, I'm positive she can see it in your eyes. My H's eyes are a blank canvas in which I have no clue what he's thinking. There've been times when I was sure he was turned on looking at me and it turns out he was deep in thought about an ice cream sandwich. (oh how I wish I was kidding) Likewise, MrsNOP has no doubt what's on your mind when you are touching her in a suggestive way. Me? It could go either way. He might be turned on and intentionally doing it, he may just be absentmindedly touching something with no clue that...doh!...his hands are between my legs.
You are probably thinking, Oh that's bullsh*t, he knows exactly what he's doing.
And THAT'S my whole point. This whole scenario is just mind boggling and impossible to believe unless you are either an LD man yourself, or an HDW who is living it.
Quote: I suspect that when your respective husbands (Jenny's and HP's), step up to meet your needs, that they are putting more in it than you recognize, or appreciate. Why is that not considered passion?
As I said above, the passion comes out AFTER I have already shown my own. So I recognize it as passion, but it is way diluted. It does not have the same effect when EVERY time, I have to act horny (well, not really acting, lol) and be the 'leader' so that he can feel safe enough to come out of his shell.
So NOP, if you had to show your own passion first every single time, and there were no other tangible signs of her desire, would you consider her passionate for you? If I remember correctly it wasn't until she started showing desire for you AND you had regular sex, that you began considering her passionate for you. I have one of those criteria but not the other.
Furthermore, why is me insisting on him showing his desire for me an "impossible to meet" standard? Why was it okay for you to require this of your wife but I am being pushy?
And please don't assume that I don't put loads of effort and energy into my relationship with him. I have goals that I look at and act on every day. There are six of them and only two are sexual in nature. If you were to sit down and have a heart to heart with my H, he would say that none of his needs are unmet and he is the happiest and luckiest husband on earth.
I have made what I believe is a simple and necessary requirement of him and he has failed to deliver it.
Now I have two choices: Continue pushing and run the risk of pushing him away; or find a way to accept that I can have one half of the equation (frequent sex and lotsa love) but not the other (desire and fun and sneaks and tweaks). I am choosing the latter. This is not defeatist, poor-me talk either. I fully intend to embark on this journey, and can feel myself already on the road.
At this point in my life, it aint happening. He is giving me all he's got. Well not everything (see above) but as much as he's currently willing to give. Perhaps someday in the future he will want to give more. I doubt it but you never know! If it happens, I plan on it being a pleasant surprise.
Now, having said all that, I want to give my H his props. He has continued to progress, even in this last pregnancy year. We both are, actually. He is stretching himself, for sure, but still has problems with desire. He gets incredibly nervous while giving me passionate pecks. This is not anything that I am doing or not doing..I make it as safe as I possibly can for him. This is WITHIN HIMSELF, MrNOP.
I think I have finally realized that I can't control something that's within him. I have done all I can with the outside influences and what Michele and Snarky boy say is so true! The changes in our lives are so dramatic that we are not the same people at all. However, you can't effect these changes forever, right! There is a natural end point where you either stand back and say, This is exactly what I wanted! Or you stand back and say, This is much much better and I am happy with the changes even though it's not perfection.
I'm choosing the second one. I consider us a success story, but I'm wasting my time striving for something that he rarely feels nor is willing to give out freely when he does feel it.
HP, Hi there! I was checking in to see how you (and others) were faring. Looks like you've made progress which has only served to whet your appetite. I know exactly what you are talking about as far as the desire thing. W rarely has a sexual thought, and is not comfortable doing anything about it when she does (until we started dialoging, I was convinced she didn't even have sexual thoughts). It is a bit frustrating feeling that lack of sexual desire, and it can become consuming if you dwell on it. Instead, I have been taking note of the extraordinary effort W has been putting into 'forcing some desire' and forcing herself to initiate even when there isn't really any desire there. Those acts are SOOOO far out of her comfort zone that they alone are incredible acts of love. The hardest part for me is making the adjustment to recognize those efforts as desire (OK, so it isn't the type of desire we think we are craving), and accepting that as the loving gesture it is. It sounds to me like your H is expending the same sort of effort. Try to recognize it as his way of expressing his desire for you (Ok,OK, it isn't really sexual desire, but....). As NOP said, I think as our S's spend more time in that uncomfortable zone, they will start becoming more comfortable there and things will improve. Like you, I am in a much better place than when I started this journey. Not the place I thought it would lead, but it is better and the journey is continuing (I've also realized that the journey has no end: it must continue indefinitely to keep the relationship alive). HP, I don't think you need to fear falling out of love with H. You need to fear missing the love he has for you because you are looking for the wrong signs. BTW, I can't even imagine my W doing MrsNOP's butt wiggle thing (if she did, I doubt I could even get my pants off fast enough). Right now we are just working on the hugs and kisses part. HP, it sounds like you are on the right track, but going at it so intensely that you are missing the scenery along the way. Take it easy girl! Look at the love he is showing. If NOPs are right (and I have to believe them), this is the first step along the way and greater things are coming. For now, take pleasure in the effort H is taking to step out of his comfort zone. Now, if I could just follow my own advice!
I agree that my intensity is sabotaging the whole thing. Right now, I'm not sure what avenue to take! I know I need to back off, but I think we'd all agree that that is a realllly vague term.
If I truly back off, he will completely stop. You have to remember that my H borrows my own sexuality in order to feed his own desire. So if I back off in the sense that I do nothing, he will shut down. If I give him his space (again a really vague term that gives me nothing in practical behavioral suggestions), there is a 50/50 chance that he will shut down. At the least, he will have MANY more days where he 'forgets' to be sexual at all. I am at a precarious place where it is my intensity (for lack of a better word) which keeps him on his toes.
Plus, not to keep beating a dead horse fellas, I think that men are much more willing to recognize the small signs of desire (or willingness) and take it from there.
Here is an example: We are kissing and hugging. Pecks only. I receive an incredibly subtle nonverbal and nontangible hint from my husband that he'd be open to an extended peck. I go for it. He likes the extended pecks but still does not make a sound or move, he's simply taking it all in and is even starting to extend the pecks himself.
NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is where an HD male would get excited and his sexual energy would take over the scene.
As an HD female, I am excited too but I want and need him to show some desire. To continue to be "shy" and wait for me to step up the action is a turnoff. It is not manly (I hate that word, btw!). Most of the time, I gently break the embrace and go off on my own. With no hard feelings, of course, because as you said he's stretching himself a LOT. I appreciate it and see it for the progress that it is. Two years ago, he would not have been able to even complete the above scenario without freaking out about the kids or whatnot.
So the predicament that I am in is this:
By continuing his current behavior, he is creating the very scene he SAYS he doesn't want. The thought that I am just after "sex" turns him off.
But for him to act shy and refuse to take the opportunity to take things to the next level turns me off and creates a situation in which I am horny and wanting an orgasm but simultaneously turned off by HIM. So yeah at that moment I am wanting sex and not necessarily him. He creates this dynamic and hates it at the same time.
Again, I think that the HD males would have no problem with taking it to the next level, every single time. Their wives would give small signals that they desire them and they are off and running. I applaud that!
But with the HD wives there is an additional component of: I want to ML to you and I received your tentative signal and gave it back 100x stronger but now I need you to step up with some strength of your own, or I will become turned off.
Gotta go, thank you for the kind words and thoughts.
Well speaking as one still in the "whips and cattle prods" stage I am both jealous of the stage that you are in and sympathetic to your current plight.
Sometimes when I look at my H with sexual longing he will actually say, "What?" (as in what are you looking at?). If he EVER looks at me that way it is after things have gotten started. The clear exceptions to this are vacations - he is just a different man on vacation.
What will it take to go to next level with your H? As NOP says - practice but I also wonder - what are his fantasies and could playing one or two out actuallly bring on some of the "naked lust" you are looking for. I know you don't mean "agression" in an S&M way - I realize what you really mean is more akin to your H being sexually self-motivated. Would a few sexual memories geared just to him give him a reference point?
I'm not sure what to say. My thought would be for now to take the sexual lead role to keep the ball rolling but continue to GENTLY push him out of his comfort zone. Talk to him a lot about his feelings, especially towards sex, initiating etc. Try to feel what he is feeling. The only way you can do that is for both of you to open up and talk about your feelings (and believe me sister, that can be the hardest thing in the world). I think if you can each share your feeling in a way that the other feels it, you'll take a big step in closing that gulf. yes, I agree, you can't back off stopping completely...it is too easy to slip back into your old patterns that way. At the same time, you can't be an unfeeling B***h about it either...You both need to feel what the other is feeling. Set your boundary and keep him from slipping back across it, but don't push it further out until he becomes more comfortable with it. Again, I think it really helps if you both can feel what the other is feeling. It develops understanding and helps to provide self motivation to for both of you to stray out of your comfort zones so that you can meet in the middle.
--GGB, who'd much rather W came into his comfort zone but realizes that in order for it to work we both need to step out of our zones and meet half way. For now, that means continuing to be the lead for me, and for forcing herself into desire for her.
What you describe is far better then what most of us get. Some of us are married to people that do not like touch of any kind, which of course makes it darn near impossible to become emotionally close. My wife wants emotional closeness, but without kissing, hugging, general affection (not sex), how can there ever be emotional closeness. Many of these relationship books say that us guys have to warm up the lady with non-sexual touching, but how the heck can we warm up a women that does not want ANY touching?
Quote: ----------- But don't feel bad. It's natural to view HD women as shrewish and demanding. -----------
I don't think you are that way. I do think that your husband does feel that way.
Quote: ----------- I suppose I could keep an "Acts of Kindness" journal to prove to myself that I am a caring person. -----------
I think that you are a caring person, otherwise you wouldn't be here.
I think that you will also find that a schedule will afford you more opportunities for experimentation in a situation that makes your hubby more comfortable.
Quote: -------- BTW. I love you NOP, but when you write about your youthful experiences spoiling "animal-like impassioned" sex for you, it reminds me of someone talking about how they can never drink whiskey again because of the time they found themselves face down in a ditch choking on their own vomit. Overindulgence in a pleasure does not necessarily make one an expert in that pleasure. I don't want to be a teetotaler or a drunk. I'm generally content with a just a glass of white wine after dinner, but every once in a while, when the moon is full, I like to get out the whiskey or tequila and howl like a wild thing. --------
My point is not my excesses, rather an attempt to point out the logical conclusion to following some fantasies. I claim no expertise as to anything here, only some experience.
I am sorry that my post was very negative for you, believe it or not, I was trying to encourage you to continue on past this hard time in your relationship. If you do continue, there will be others as well. Again, speaking from experience, not training.
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Quote: If he EVER looks at me that way it is after things have gotten started. The clear exceptions to this are vacations - he is just a different man on vacation.
What makes him work on vacation? Can you replicate that at home? Maybe take lots of mini vacations. Does he need some way to absolutely clear the clutter from his mind?
Quote: --------- ... is comfortable enough in his own sexual skin to let his feelings and desires clearly show. My husband will look at me with this half-smiley, clearly self conscious look on his face that does nothing for me, sexually speaking.... ---------
That is why I am pushing for the dreaded schedule. The idea is to make an environment where he can practice his confidence or whatever else needs addressing.
I understand that your needs are for him to desire being with you, and that it is a turn on for you to be pursued. I think that he wants to do that! I think that he is scared to try.
Quote: ---------- This whole scenario is just mind boggling and impossible to believe unless you are either an LD man yourself, or an HDW who is living it. ----------
That is where we disagree. I don't think it is mind boggling. I don't think it is unusual.
From my experience, it is easy to extrapolate a simple truth. When I was at odds with my wife, neither one of us had much of a clue as to the others motives or thoughts. As it turns out, the only thing that we were both right about was that there was a problem. I suspect you will find this mostly true for your situation.
Quote: ---------- Furthermore, why is me insisting on him showing his desire for me an "impossible to meet" standard? Why was it okay for you to require this of your wife but I am being pushy? ----------
My requirement for MrsNOP, ultimately, was that she want to be there (in bed). There are no 'requirements' as to performance. For the record, there was quite a long spell where she only "showed up" with no desire or passion. It was from there that we eventually faced our problems and worked through them. It was not due to my 'super drive', it was due to our tenacious personalities that we made it this far.
I do not think that your husband is "giving me all he's got".
Quote: ---------- I want to get back to focusing on the positive. ----------
I understand that. It is a much more comfortable place to be. The problem is that your horse isn't dead yet. Ignoring the sickness won't make it go away. It is a good thing to notice the positives, but address the negatives, you must.
All I want for you and yours, is success. I want to read about your hubby making passionate love to you. I want to hear how well your schedule is working or how hard it is. Difficulty as a product of correctly focused change is a positive.
In any case, i am no one's guru. I see what I think are holes in your approach with hubby. I try in my limited way to point those out. Hearing someone else being critical of something that you are doing (me. you, anyone) sucks. While I said some hard things to you, I intended no harm.
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
I just want to say that I see the wisdom in what NOP is saying but I hate like h*ll that what is required is a long wade through the waters of tepid sex before a reasonable flow can be established.
CeMar - I get those short overnights after a series of monthly "talks" - takes about 4 to six consecutive ones to get one a month or three out from that. I try to "set the stage" at home as much as possible but home just feels like pressure to him. I think a schedule is the only way we can work through that particular problem.
HP - didn't mean to hijack but I thought the various purposes of a schedule are worth repeating. I know you are looking for some spontaneously motivated stuff from your H but I think it will require a bit more time.
