The last message on that thread was from OGLou, and it was a goodie. Here it is:
HD wrote on page 1 of this thread << How did I get here? >>
HairDog, I am not as sex starved as you are but almost wound up that way. W likes to watch "Lifetime Time" and "Oxygen" channels for "WOMEN" on the satalite system. Many movies about male dentist, lawyers that have a nice family and wife. The male character also has his honey on the side. The old betrayed wife and cheating husband theme. We also watch programs that deal with 3rd world countries where women carry water and gather firewood while the men discuss politics.
When my W talks about how unfair these situations are and seh says "MEN ARE SUCH JERKS" I finally told her if she was implying that I treated her poorly, and that she should give me an example. She said I was OK. Then I asked her who she knew (female) that was treated poorly. W could not name anyone she knew personally.
I had enough of her putdowns in general and said if she wanted to fill her life with cheating husband movies, I would not sit with her whils she watched those types of movies. W did not like my comment, but 6 months later those cheating husband moves are not watched in my house.
Also about the thread "asexuals" I am believing more in that concept. Not to say a LD spouse can not become more sexual, but starting to believe more people could be relative happy without sex with a regular frequency, kind of like once in a blue moon.
Your W's comment about doing with out sex seems to be a power struggle and would lead me to think about controlled seperation (30 days or what works for you) if I were in that situation. (after ruling out mental problems or severe depression)
Now Mrs Hairdog and Mr.FF boy, would that be interesting. Would the polar caps double in size or would they see how stubborn they are and do something about their own attitude toward their real spouse.
W and I watch "Wife Swap", ABC network, and talk about how OTHER people seem far from the norm and how they can correct things in their R. It seems to help us a little sometimes.
OG Lou, Wondering if lawyer believe in binding arbitration. I think the comment that led to the non-watching of the bad men portrayals is a good one. I don't treat her that way. She would be able to pick out several people she knows whose lives have been ruined by affairs, though. She is a divorce lawyer, of course.
I thank you for the look inside the OG household, though. I am definitely calling "bull sh*t" on her portrayals of men which don't apply to her personal treatment by me. She can have all those views if she wants, but don't apply them to me.
Hdog, I picked up a book off my bookshelf that I bought several years ago. It's called The Erotic Mind, by Jack Morin.
It has some very interesting ideas in it that are summarized on the amazon page, for example:
Quote: The Erotic Mind explains the many paradoxes of erotic life, such as: why we're most excited when we must overcome obstacles; how anxiety, guilt, and anger -- generally thought to have a negative impact on sexual arousal -- often turn out to be aphrodisiacs; how we use unresolved issues from our early lives to intensify passion; and why the best sex is dynamic and unpredictable, rather than static and safe.
He talks about how early in life we may have come to associate eroticism with anxiety (as in back-seat fumblings), so later, safe in the marriage bed, it is hard to... well, get hard. He talks about a woman who always chose men who ran hot and cold, until she figured out that she is turned on by a guy who is "almost" in love with her. He talks about how "longing" can be very erotic, but winning the object of our longing will probably mean a drop in eroticism. There are lots of examples, some of them reminded me of what you've said about Mrs Hdog... I haven't really done the book justice in this short comment....
HD: I have yet to figure out why DB.com locks a thread. It does not seem to have anything to do with elapsed time or # of postings or # of lines posted. Hmmmm. Any insight? /tangent
Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, haha) for you, I have no useful comments on Mrs.HD and her actions/reactions. Like my W, she seems stuck in a deep rut where she does not want to change. Perhaps she's used to the misery and would miss it if things got better?
HairDog wrote about Mrs HairDog {{She is a divorce lawyer, of course.}}
Hair........Hair........Hair........(sigh,) that is so big of a factor IMO. The crap at work influences her thinking and behavior at home.
My W changed a lot when she was the med nurse for clients (mostly female) in a "Co-Dependency" treatment program at the hospital where she worked. That coupled with our traditional backgrounds, IE: (man works 50hrs/W, makes most of the financial decisions, pays for everything, captain of the ship so to speak, woman stays home, makes the social and family decisions, has the checkbook for running the house, is the first mate) was real fuel for W's fire to change things at home. I can also say that the other people that worked in the "Co-Dependency program seemed to change at this time.
Things that W encountered at work with contact with clients that had abusive spouses seemed to triger reactions for what used to be called normal male / female household roles. It used to be, I would do certain things and expect her to do certain other, things. Then after W working at the hospital, what we each did seperatly in the past and depended on the other to do, started to be called co-dependency. (Co-dependency program disbanded because insurance companies would no longer pay for this type of "Treatment.")
Main point I am trying to make. Things at work influence the M. If your W sees alot of poor spousal behavior at work, I am inclined to think small inocent behaviors at home, that are blatend SOB behaviors in a client's R, will influence how she treats you.
{{ She can have all those views if she wants, but don't apply them to me.}} precisely HD. It took me almost a year of asking how I fit in when W made her "men are xyz" comments for W to quit, well almost quit. Some people really ARE XYZ.
Problems [ 1. You don't challenge each other. Unconditional acceptance is a myth. Healthy marriages require a mutual willingness to challenge and be challenged. An "Oh, I'll let the little woman do whatever makes her happy" attitude can be condescending and harmful. If your partner lounges around in her bathrobe watching TV every day and you say nothing, then you're not invested in her well-being. Maybe she's depressed. Maybe she's sick. Maybe she's succumbing to laziness. Regardless, the message that she gets loud and clear from your silence is that you don't care. (PLEASE NOTE) Not only do you have the right to make reasonable demands on your partner, you have the obligation to do so. ]
I was trying to avoid conflicts, so many times I let some things slide, other times I insisted on certain things. I have learned it is OK to confront W sometimes because it is good for the both of us, not just me feeling I deserved something better or W did something out of bounds.
HairDog, Glad you can see BS and call it BS. Keep it up. I do not know of anyone that would agree to no sex and would still want to be friends. I know having children with that type of spouse complicates the plan of action to remedy the presenting problem, be it= my way, her way, a compromise, the highway, or what ever you think is correct in your situation.
OG Lou Been working at it for a while. Is this little paycheck mine? Well, at least I got a paycheck. Some didn't.
Okay folks . . . first of all, although she is a divorce/family lawyer, she wasn't when we met. She was a professor. She probably represents about an equal number of husbands and wives. She'd be the first one to admit that some women are psycho, and some men are a-holes. She actually does a pretty good job of separating the work from our home life.
I really think that all the external arguments (men are evil, sex drive is evil, etc.), and the personal arguments (too tired, too itchy, stomach/head ache, and even the body image arguments), are just a smokescreen for the true problems, which lie in her fear of abandonment and fear of intimacy. Jeeze, if we can just slide by those problems, we're fine! Sigh.
My H said goodnight as I was watching "The 5 ppl---". I was so hurt that he didn't even sit with me. YET, I didn't call to him either. I said to myself that the pain wasn't worth it. Then I chastised myself!
I AM facilitating this mess by letting him off the hook and not pointing out what an a$$ he's being and how discourtious and selfish. You are too by allowing her to use all these PC excuses. I don't think every criminal can reform; do you? I don't think every fridgid/mean spouse can either.
Pity me that the heart is slow to learn
What the swift mind beholds at every turn.
Edna St. Vincent Millay
I think that if you wanted to your H to come over and sit with you to watch some TV, it was your responsibility to ask him to do so. He's not being an a$$ for going to bed, and he did say goodnight.
I think your expectations are causing you as many problems as your H is... how in the world is going to bed and saying goodnight discourteous and selfish?
Hairy, As a woman, I can say that I absolutely relate to the feeling of "I hate men!" at times. And, as you know, I am a woman who genuinely LIKES men. I like almost everything about them and, for once, I am not talking in sexual terms. lol
However, I can tell you that when I am putting my D's in their carseats..leaning over into my trusty minivan with my back exposed...I hate men. I hate the feeling of fear. Can you honestly imagine what it's like to live in fear, HD? Not that I live in fear all the time, but when it hits it is so strong and severe that it takes a while to shake it off. These kids are dependent on me to protect them. As a woman and member of the weaker sex, I cannot do that. Instead I rely on luck and sensible living. (ie, I don't have my kids out in bad areas at nighttime, etc)
Even at the hardware store the other day, I was getting irritated at mankind. I was nursing the baby with the kids in the car while H ran inside. Hairy, EVERY time a man walked by in close proximity to our car, I felt the hairs go up. I would watch the guy with wariness until he was past. Now, these men looked like your typical suburban dads. But I don't care. I am a woman and I have 3 kids to defend. It is a very helpless feeling!
My grandmother is a wicked feminist, in the same vein as MrsHairy. She was married to a quiet man who let her run roughshod over him. Their daughter, my mother, is a feminist as well but to a MUCH lesser extent. After all, she got to watch her mother emasculate her beloved dad all those years. I take after my mother. I was a student of women's studies in college and there are times when I hate men. I know it is awful to say that but it's true. In addition to that, I never had a good role model for men growing up (as your wife can relate to) so it has taken me a long time to chill out and realize that my husband was not going to live up to the standards of manhood that I was accustomed to--he was going to exceed them.
The other night I had a conversation with my H that went like this: MrHP: Man I would be happy man if I had pizza rolls, beer, chips and salsa and a Star Trek movie. HP: If you had told me that on our first date, we wouldn't have had a second. (lol) MrHP: Yep and that's why I kept it a secret! HP: Hey wait a minute, I like chips and salsa and beer but you can have the other things. MrHP: Yeah if YOU had said you liked all those things on our first date, I wouldn't have asked you out for the second! (for the record, he didn't ask me out for the first, I did, but I digress) HP: Why is that? I would think you would have thought you hit pay dirt with a girl who liked all the stuff you do. MrHP: Nah, I wanted a traditional girl. HP: ( snorting with laughter) Is that what you think you got? MrHP: Actually you have turned out a LOT more traditional than I originally thought you were. You were quite a feminist when we first met and I had a hard time with that cause you acted like you hated men. But you have mellowed out a lot. HP: That's true. MrHP: Pass the chips.
I know you are rolling your eyes right now, thinking that MrsHD will never change and there is a good chance she won't. But it is possible that she may chill out a little, is it not? My grandmother never changed. She is still alive and kickin, though my grandpa died a year ago. Towards the end of his life, he would take people aside and plead his case: "I can't take it anymore. She is so mean. People think it's funny to hear her talk, but it's not when you have to live with it everyday." We felt sorry for him but what could we do? Emancipate him??!
Anyway, he is partly the reason why I encourage you to really stand your ground with her. My grandma slowly stole all of his power and masculinity over the years til he had given it all away and had nothing left. Then he was stuck listening to her sh*t for the rest of his days.
Oh and btw, she is disgusted that I recently had my 3rd child. She thinks my husband is behind "all those kids", etc, and no matter how many times I tell her that I am happy with my life decisions she thinks that I simply do not know any better. Hmph!
Anyway, hang in there. Has Mrs.HD ever considered the fact that by haranguing the perfectly wonderful men out there that she is inadvertently advancing the paternalistic agenda? If all the good guys out there are STILL reviled for the sins of their brothers then why should they continue to be good? Oh well, as you said, it's not really the core issue. Fear leads to anger for her...her fear of intimacy and abandonment leads to anger at all men, and by association and proximity, YOU.
