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I don’t know why I failed to mention it before – I guess I never thought of it. As much as S. was the pursuer when we first met, he was still getting over her rejection. It took him nearly two years from the breakup to when I felt he had really let her go. She is a lovely woman (they are just starting to be friends again, and she’s invited us to a few parties – I like her very much), drop-dead gorgeous, smart, and a professional dancer (so, perfect body, too). I can see why it took so long to get over her, and I think theirs was a good R with little of the crisis and struggling over communication that we’ve had.

S. says that he got very needy, and fell all over himself to make her happy, and lost himself in the process. She asked for space, and he clung faster. We BB smarties all know where that led. So now, he is at the other end of the spectrum, making sure that nothing, but nothing, gets in the way of what he wants and who he is, taking it to the extreme, and is struggling with the obvious fallacy of that tack (because he realizes it’s just as bad as losing oneself). It has made him VERY sensitive to anything that resembles behavior modification, and consequently I’ve really struggled with him on this.

Merrick, I know you’re struggling, and I’m sorry. You deserve better.

Jennifer

P.S. Re: Dairy farming: Whatever happened to the M/V theory that men express their love through ML? S. is actually a very sensitive guy. I feel he really does come closer to me after we ML, and it makes him more tender toward me, as well. I also notice that he wants to ML after we’ve had difficult convs., thus in a way reassuring himself and me that things are OK again. I wouldn’t dream of withholding because I thought it would get me a bigger commitment. Besides, why would I give up such a great sex life?


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H2H- I have been thinking the same thing---nothing is really permanent. Right now we are where we are, and just because my H and I made a comittment, doesn't mean that we will be here forever for each other. That leaves me with appreciating everything that comes my way today, bc it could be gone tomorrow. A committed realtionship comes in many forms, and I don't think marriage defines a committed realtionship. My 2 cents' worth.

Anne


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Quote:


Then, like a bolt of dolt, I realized I’d be hoppin’ mad if he’d done the same thing (like suddenly start going to a yoga class every day with a single FF), and so I managed to choke out a concession.
This is a big one. Glad you rose to the moment here.

2. Hmmmm, well! I validated his feelings and actually managed not to say much, listening to him explain how he felt. I kept quiet, not really knowing how to deal with the information and not wanting to react. ...I haven’t shared him with someone else, and that his ability to be with ONE person has been a question for me, and that a few of these FFs he had had “relations” with in the past, and that I have always been very transparent about my Rs with my friends, and made every effort to include him, and in contrast he has balked at including me, not ever introduced me to at least one of his close friends, and barely introduced me to the others. I talked about how in a R there is a need to include other people, to grow in different ways and learn things about each other we can’t learn just be being in a vacuum together all the time.
This is a big one. I struggle with the transparency of my life vs. H's secretive pasttimes with others, etc. For me it extends to my paranoia about his open access to my computer vs total shutdown of his stuff.
Do you have some goals for yourself on this one? What would it take to have him inviting you to meet others?
The fact that he has you meeting his ex-flame seems like a huge step in the right direction. Can you imagine what you might do to move in a direction to a greater opening here?


3. We talked a lot about the rhythm of our R and how he feels we don’t know important things about each other. He was talking mainly about this hurt he felt about not being included in the film festival, and finally I got him to see that I was fully aware how important it was to him, and I didn’t try to go when he couldn’t go out of spite.
Ugh. Handholding these babies can be so tedious. We need to stop cutting ourselves out of social gtherings, etc simply because they won't go. "I am sorry you feel that way. I would love to have you there with me." And then GO!

So, difficult but positive. I saw some of S’s fears more clearly last night, which was VERY eye-opening as to his state of mind. I do believe, as you say Merrick, that he is ABLE to take it to the next level, but he’s not ready. In his case, though, I think the not ready is fear of rejection. This fear also keeps him from being able to express his insecurities. I would LOVE for him to get some T, or us to get some T together, but I will not bring it up, at least not now. Have I mentioned here that S’s last serious girlfriend he asked to marry him, and she said No?



D'oh! Well that is biggie, isn't it? How do we move him to a safe place on this one?

Hope some/any of the comments I have had are helpful. We do have more power than we feel we have. I keep seeing it over and over on other people's threads. I need to act from this understanding in my own situation.

I do feel hopeful for your R with him.

maya

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Jennifer, I am just so impressed you can sit adn listen adn validate. Impressive DBing!


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Yikes! Tons of good stuff over here! Plenty of food for thought.

Re: S.'s rejected proposal - that could very well have A LOT to do with his current state. In my own sitch, SO was married briefly before I met him. His w. had an A. and left him. It had a very far reaching impact on his life then, and still today. And many, if not most, of his friends & work colleagues are divorced. I think most of us here can attest to the impact of such rejections... I do believe S. is capable of the getting there, with some time, patience and continued good efforts to work out the kinks, he (& you) can get there.

Then, like a bolt of dolt, I realized I’d be hoppin’ mad if he’d done the same thing

Good! Um, I can vouch that yes you would be in a tizzy, so recognizing this right then and there is a very good thing for you.

To my surprise (HE’S NOT DEAF EITHER, H2H!), he quoted back something I’d read aloud to him by Shirley Glass,...

- Funny when we recognize this... but what does this mean? It means that you are being heard, and I think you have to give him time to process things and let him put it together with all else that it is happening. When we feel we're not getting results fast enough these sorts of moments are reminders that we can't control the timeframe - that they may well have a different schedule than ours. No, they're not deaf, so no need to beat stuff into their heads sounding like a broken record.

From Maya: This is a big one. I struggle with the transparency of my life vs. H's secretive pasttimes with others, etc. For me it extends to my paranoia about his open access to my computer vs total shutdown of his stuff.
Do you have some goals for yourself on this one? What would it take to have him inviting you to meet others?
The fact that he has you meeting his ex-flame seems like a huge step in the right direction. Can you imagine what you might do to move in a direction to a greater opening here?


Ditto here - I feel I am terribly transparent, and SO has life I don't see or hear about. And I struggle with this issue. Though I think that in my case learning to be less 'reactive', that is making it safer for him to confide in me has helped a lot. I think in his mind, he hides behind the idea that he can't tell me stuff because of my reaction, my ASSumptions, etc. And there is some truth in that, but I also think it's a bit of a convenient excuse. I'd say overall he is more 'private' a person than I am and somehow feels he needs some boundaries around his life/feelings as a sort of self-protection. Nonetheless, the issue is there - and I think Maya's questions are good ones for you to take a stab at.

I talked about how in a R there is a need to include other people, to grow in different ways and learn things about each other we can’t learn just be being in a vacuum together all the time.

I totally understand this one! And I think I've mentioned it to you, that as some of my earlier 'goals' were met, that the goal of doing things with others was one of my newer goals. We spend nearly 100% of our time just the two of us. Many acquaintances of ours don't even know we're not together anymore, and those friends who do know never see us together anymore. I've known for quite a while that this is not good. I think mentioning it to S. is a good thing! (I'm beginning to sound like Martha Stewart!)

He said something about my comment that I “couldn’t fight for maybe” and he completely understood that, but that I, too, showed doubt all the time, and how was he to know my own commitment when I was talking about “walking away” (his words)? Which, as H2H pointed out above, is a big problem for both of us. We’re both waiting for the hourly temp check before we stick more than our big toe in the water.

Yup, I do think this has been an issue - and again, I have seen it in my own sitch, actually when we were together. I spent more time pointing out what was wrong, than validating, WOA, and pointing out all that was good. You and S. seem to be having a TON of R talks and maybe it would be helpful to limit it a bit - to spend more easy & light QT, more enjoyment, and less of the 'heavy' stuff so often. Just a thought...

Lots of positives in the last few days, Jennifer! Have you let S. know how much you appreciate his openess & honesty with you? Do you see/feel how much he IS trying?

re: dairy farm - I agree! The "What Could He Be Thinking?" book also talks about the bonding men do via ML. And I can tell you that from this side of the screen it all does seem like a very, very, very good thing!

Talk to you later,
-H2H

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you are the validation Queeen. That is so hard for me!


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Jennifer, two things struck me--

* He is jealous and fearful that you will leave him for MF! Now that you know that, how can you make it a little safer for him, but without losing all the mystery and allure that we all know is part of an erotic relationship.....Just remember that he is a sensitive guy.

* I agree with H2H that you guys both seem to groove on intense talks (3 hours! I think my H would break out in hives by then....). Maybe try a few days of fun activities like the pizza-making, and dial down the intensity? Just for a change of pace .

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Great stuff, Jennifer.

It's interesting for me to see how far along a R can be (compared to mine at the moment) and yet how much DBing there is to do. I guess it never ends. As I've probably said before, I love the details of your R. You're great at quoting the pertinent bits of your convos.


This bit reminds me of me and H:

Quote:

He said something about my comment that I “couldn’t fight for maybe” and he completely understood that, but that I, too, showed doubt all the time, and how was he to know my own commitment when I was talking about “walking away” (his words)?





Of course, H only says this sort of thing when the pendulum is swinging back towards me. When he says it, I feel like saying that I'm only thinking of leaving because HE isn't committed and that he can't use it as a reason not to commit. I don't think it's fair to use a reaction of mine to behavior of his to then justify his behavior.

I'm not advocating you think the way I do about this. It's obvious that my thinking has not got me anywhere good! At least, I've stopped pointing out to H that I think he is appealing to circular reasoning.

I look forward to following your sitch. I'm very envious of your great sex life. That feels like another world.

Wendy


Me: 51
H: 52
T: 23 yrs
M: 19 yrs
S18, D16, S14 (special needs)
PA: 2003/2004
Piecing: 2004 on
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Quote:

It's interesting for me to see how far along a R can be (compared to mine at the moment) and yet how much DBing there is to do.



Wendy, have you read Sage's 247 threads? You ain't seen NOTHIN' yet!





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#381248 12/09/04 03:13 AM
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I’ve been procrastinating posting on my thread, because there is just so much to respond to, as well as update, journal, and allow my thoughts to ramble. HOW do we do it?!

First of all, THANK YOU H2H, Slowly, Ellie, SD, Merrick, Sage, GBO, Anne, Maya, and Wendy! What a lovely group of supporters, and a wonderful, spirited conversation going on over here. I’m overwhelmed by your support and by your clear, wise words.

I don’t know where to start. I’ll do the easiest thing and update. The morning after the big three-hour talk about S’s insecurities regarding MF and the sudden interest in noir film, we woke up rather distant. I had to get up early for a yoga class, and mentioned to S. I was interested in going to that day’s films, and asked if he could get away from work early either Tues or Weds for the two films that were showing those days. He didn’t know, but said he’d call and let me know.

He did call, and made a heroic effort to be there. I had told MF I needed a date with S., and he was busy anyway, so he did not join. S. showed up exhausted and run down, feeling achy and feverish, but determined to see the double feature (Kiss of Death and Pickup on South Street, both EXcellent!). So, I turned up my nurturing side to overdrive, and S. was basking in the attention. [Note: He’s never been sick since I’ve known him, or at least he’s not let me take care of him.] He was super affectionate, resting his head on my shoulder, etc. Afterward I force-fed him Vitamin Water (Power C), and made him bundle up for bed in flannel PJ pants. He kept talking about how nice it was to go to the movies together.

This morning he was very appreciative (felt 100% better, he said), and kept talking about how nice an evening it was. So tonight, he called to check in and said he’d be going for a bite to eat with a friend from work (M), and he’d call me when he got home. It sounded like he was going to go home and stay there, so I pulled a 180 and didn’t pout.

I don’t know how to begin addressing some of your specific questions. I think I’ve turned (another) corner in understanding where S. is in this process, and can do better with my DBing. I’ve discovered some very important things about S. in the last 5-6 days, and I’m glad for the opportunity to process them and put them into actionable positives.

Sage, asking for assurances was a whackable offense, I agree. I guess I couldn’t resist that time-honored question, “What are you thinking?” I’ll try to use your script for that one next time, Slowly! I wonder, though – it’s usually a signal that he knows that something’s on my mind and he is open to hearing what it is. Am I cutting off his attempts to hear me by blowing him off? Maybe I could say, “I don’t know, do you sense that I need to talk about something?” SD and H2H, I will validate S. for putting up with my insecurities and working so hard on this R. Good reminders, thanks.

GBO, you’re right that we both love to throw down and get philosophical. Three hours is nothing compared to the all-nighters we used to pull (when we were younger ). This last talk was completely initiated by him, but you are right to suggest we need to dial down the intensity so we can have fun, too (and here are S’s words: We need to talk, but we also need to live our relationship). I’m trying to find another time to make some “assemble required” dinner, and S. is chomping at the bit for a Scrabble rematch – he keeps saying how he was beaten, but he held his own against “Miss Words, Miss Webster, Miss OED” – his way of validating me for being a good and sought after editor (which you can’t tell by my posts!).

As an aside, and a much-needed validation, since my present project is winding down, I sent an inquiry to an editor at a prestigious university press with whom I have never worked. I said I was looking to expand my client base, and wondered if he’d be interested in my resume. He replied within 5 minutes, saying he knew my work and was thrilled I was available! I was surprised and flattered. I’ve been working for my former employer, another big university press, and I have been nervous about having most of my eggs in one basket. It was also limiting my income potential.

BTW, Betsey, I used your coaching from way back when to renegotiate my fee with my former employer! Thanks – and my house-buying fund thanks you. (And S. thanks you, though he will never know it… )

Maya, I don’t know what it looks like to have S. more open about his friendships. We are both VERY introverted and do much better 1 on 1 rather than in groups. One thing he said (and has said before to this very discussion) was that when we are having problems, or when things are tense between us, it is readily apparent to close friends, and he didn’t want to subject them to tension in our R. OK, I can think of 99 things to refute this (like, I can cook TG dinner for your mother and her friends but I can’t be introduced to your close FF? or, You can come down two years in a row and spend Christmas with my family, which you KNOW is incredibly special and important, but we can’t hang out with your friends together?), but it’s how he feels, and so it’s valid. Ugh, Ick, and Blech.

OK folks, I’m exhausted and will be turning in now. Thanks again for the support and great ideas!

Jennifer


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