Interesting things you say. Thanks for your thoughtful post!
I want to say first that maybe I wasn't clear about going to Ga. for Christmas (and maybe I was, but you're putting forth a different opinion) - I was thinking it was MY decision, because we have already agreed and are planning to go down there (we made that decision right when we got back together, and he asked me to then have TG in Vermont with his mother). Does that change your angle?
Anyway, I think you're right about S's fear of commitment, and to be honest, I think there's fear lurking in my quarters, as well. We talked about this in the car, somehow without a interstate highway incident...
But I think S's greatest fear is that the minute the Pachelbel Canon* stops playing and the bridesmaids have processed, and the double doors open and I stand there on my father's arm (swathed in a fabulous green dress), rather than the trumpet voluntary he'll hear the JAWS theme music and by then it will be too late. I do believe that S. wants the family and the nice life with a lovely wife, but I think he is scared of me. I can be a difficult one, Merrick, and while I play all sweet and I'm on my best behavior 'round town with my DB buddies, I've got fangs that would reach across the Brooklyn Bridge right now and nick your arm as you sit working.
I don't deny that S. has his issues-with-a-capital-I. And he seems much more open to discussing them with me as I make that safe space for him to share. And the more he opens up and I don't react with pain and anger, the more he shares, the more he works them out, the happier we are.
Hey, I think I just wrote out a recipe here!
S sounds like the type who can stick with a decision once he truly makes it--and by that I mean more than just giving something a chance. You're right on, here. He's a plugger onner, for sure. One of the things I love about the lug.
Here's a totally different thread:
On the car ride back from Vermont, S. and I talked about family relationships, especially grandparents, and I had such a wonderful opportunity to reflect on my relationships with each of my wonderful grandparents and to remember what a great influence each had on my life and education. I feel so lucky to have such a loving, supportive, and involved family. It was great to be able to share that out loud with S.
S. has had the opposite, of course, but he is I think being influenced by me to have a better rela with his mother. Also, with his sister getting engaged, there was a lot of talk about that and how his mother had bizarrely wondered if sis would want her to come out there for the wedding – “she might want just immediate family or something...”. To which S. replied, “THAT WOULD BE YOU, MOM.”
One other thing that happened was that S’s mom came for lunch on the day we left (Mon) and said something weird like “I won’t call you on Christmas day this year – last year I called and found out you were in Georgia!” To which S immediately said “I TOLD you I was going to Ga!” and she said she hadn’t known. She then said “I’m a nosy mother, I want to know where you are on Christmas day!” And I jumped in, “That’s not nosy! And if you don’t call us, we’ll call you, so there.” So we talked about that on the trip back, and S. had said he never can share with his mother because she thinks it’s too personal to ask questions (vestiges of his late father’s control who used to berate her and say “It’s none of your business” when she’d ask S. questions about his life). Another thing at the lunch was that she said “Oh, I shouldn’t tell you this, but people at [place where she lives] are teasing me, asking if I’m gearing up for a double wedding!” to which S. was embarrassed and I immediately said something to guide the conv elsewhere. She called later to apologize to S. because it was obviously an awkward thing to say...
Which led to, with my encouragement, S. opened a dialog with his mother about sharing... he told her she could ask him anything she wanted and if he thought he didn’t want to share he’d let her know, but that he wanted to be able to share and not feel like they had this strained rela that was tiptoeing around normal things parents know about their children.
That's a couple of handfuls, so I'll close there for now.
*With all due respect to Pachelbel, that piece of music drives me absolutely nuts and will not be played at my wedding. And with any luck, neither will the JAWS theme music!
Jennifer, you made me laugh with your comment on Pachelbel and the fabulous green dress too.....quite a picture, I had it in mind immediately. Sounds like S is doing some thinking. Has he mentioned the fear of you? Have you addressed that topic at all with him (or yourself)?
nice recipe Jennifer! I had to copy so much of your thread to re-read and I am just so impressed with how you are doing. I applaud your treading into the dark waters of the unkown with deliberance and thoughtfullness about your partner. I am realizing I just dove in wtihout much hertfelt conversation about expectations and all.
jennifer, beleive me, I have those shredding teeth too. But the more I DB, the more I feel them straining on my lips to get out and get a good rip thru H's heart.
"Am I really doing this? This can't be the Jennifer I used to know and struggle with. You ARE doing this and this shows how much room each of us can grow if we're willing to look within and commence the journey. " Good stuff here! Merrick is on it, and I believe his rabbit analogy. Fear is a big one for everyone. If we can cut back on fear -and I love your nopenalty rule for car conversations about R too-our own fears and keep things safe for them, then we can go farther. But boy is that hard!
I am still DBing for sure, I think I can hear someone's words, "still early days, dear", as I am just now accepting and beginning to actually see that he wants out, something most postes have to do more quickly when an OP is involved (and one may be involved here, I am not counting that out). Anyway, Jennifer, your threads of thoughtful experiences and your patience with others, and frank advice offers much to others!
Thanks for sharing all that you have been thru, your journey is really exciting. You may not see how far you have come since June, but I can!
Hi guys. I've not had the heart to pos lately - mainly because things are happening, up and down, so quickly I don't even know how to filter any of it out. So I decided to lay low and see what filtered its own self out. Unfortunately, not much.
Thanks, Anne, for the encouragement. And GBO, we haven't talked specifically about his fears, just an undercurrent of it as we figure out other stuff. Who knows what's under the thick skull? Could be mashed potatoes, for all I know.
I do know, however, that he seems to be sticking in there for the tough stuff, and though I feel him pulling away at times, it's usually temporary cave time. I've had a hard time giving it to him, but have managed without too much controlling behavior.
The last few days have been tense. I have been going to our local art-film house for an "Essential Noir" series, and S. has been beside himself. He's a member of the theater, and loves classic movies, and I've been going with my MF (straight, the one I've known for 14 years and who is living in NYC temporarily until December) because S. has been working (he works late as a journalist).
So this morning as he was leaving, S. asked me if we had any plans tonight, I said no, and he said OK, see you later! I said wait, do you want to make plans? No, I don't have time - I have to move the car. Then no follow-up call.
So I called to ask about the w-e, because I wanted to make plans (with him and others). I mentioned the movies and said I wanted to see several more films (they only play them for a day, at the most two days, each). So he came over to finish the talk, and went into a mini-tirade about how HE was the one with the membership, and HE'S the one who loves old movies, and WHY am I "suddenly" so interested, and going with MF, and... boy, he was pretty worked up. Part of me is glad he was jealous (?), because it shows he has a pulse, and part of me knows it only causes him to withdraw. Jealousy does NOT become him.
So, after I diffused the situation by talking about how MF is only going to be around for a few more weeks, and how he is a movie buff (he MAKES films, for Pete's sake), and how I couldn't go with S. anyway because he's been working late, and how at any opportunity I asked if he was interested, includng this a.m. about going tonight... anyway, the rest of the conv was about how difficult it is to make plans and it's because we don't know each other's rhythms, and so tonight we are going to get together to talk about our time boundaries and schedules.
The point is to figure out when each of us is available and when not, so we can make plans more easily. Another thing that came up was feeling "pressure to go out and do things all the time," which I quickly said that making plans to me was about home time as well as going out, not just about making reservations and buying tickets. In FACT, in light of the discussion I decided to blow a surprise I had for him this w-e and tell him I bought all the fixins to make pizza at home, and I thought it would be a fun thing to do together on Saturday night. He looked a little dazed.
So we'll see how it goes.
Many other thigns were said, but I'll have to post later.
But I think S's greatest fear is that the minute the Pachelbel Canon* stops playing and the bridesmaids have processed, and the double doors open and I stand there on my father's arm (swathed in a fabulous green dress), rather than the trumpet voluntary he'll hear the JAWS theme music and by then it will be too late. I do believe that S. wants the family and the nice life with a lovely wife, but I think he is scared of me. I can be a difficult one, Merrick, and while I play all sweet and I'm on my best behavior 'round town with my DB buddies, I've got fangs that would reach across the Brooklyn Bridge right now and nick your arm as you sit working.
Jin..you had me in hysterics with this above comment. I was told by the counselor and by a friend of mine, that the EXH was also afraid of me. He wasn't man enough to take on someone with such a strong personality (the Scorpio in me..sigh) I am also known as the 'sweet and innocent' one, but I too can turn into a barricuda when I am upset. I start swinging (figuratively) and don't stop until I am exhausted. Trying to catch myself now. But I do know that I need a man who can put up with me and not just SAY he can. Actions, my dear, actions. You do sound good and your relationship does seem to be going well - just slowly and that is what is best.
Quote: I do know, however, that he seems to be sticking in there for the tough stuff, and though I feel him pulling away at times, it's usually temporary cave time. I've had a hard time giving it to him, but have managed without too much controlling behavior.
IMO, these are two important 'facts': (1) S. needs cave time regularly (intimate separateness, right? back at ya!) and (2) you know this, but have some work to do to um, i hate to use this word, 'embrace' it.
Can you identify the cycle? His triggers for needing cave time? Maybe what YOU do that triggers that need?
Quote: So he came over to finish the talk, and went into a mini-tirade about how HE was the one with the membership, and HE'S the one who loves old movies, and WHY am I "suddenly" so interested, and going with MF, and... boy, he was pretty worked up. Part of me is glad he was jealous (?), because it shows he has a pulse, and part of me knows it only causes him to withdraw. Jealousy does NOT become him.
Hmmm, do you think jealousy becomes you or any of us? Remember this next time you start worrying about those 20-something female friends of his... But more importantly, he may not have done a good job of expressing his 'frustration' at having to work rather than going to the movies with you. And perhaps, there is a bit of feeling he's easily replaced with your MF. Could he be feeling he's not getting the attention he needs?
Or can this be about his" feeling "pressure to go out and do things all the time" - that if he doesn't conform to your level of going out, that you'll just replace him with the next convenient MF. Do you think he'd have the same reaction if you told him you were going with me or another GF?
It seems there are patterns of 'miscommunication' that surface around particular issues - going out, money, attention - a couple of weeks ago you listed "myths or truths" of S's perceptions about you. Might be a good idea to revisit those, particularly the actions associated with busting those myths . . .
I'll be home Sat. night - I am SO looking forward to a girlie night to catch up on things. And I will need your stern dose of becoming less available.
From across the pond, it sounds like you're doing okay - don't let the little dips sink you down. Rather than trying to filter every little 'thing', how about looking at the balance of the day, or the week and measuring results on a bigger scale?
JB- I am impressed with the way you so thoughtfully discuss the issues and plan to discuss them, too. That is so cool that you have enough self-knowledge to see that it is needed! Cave time is expectedly needed, TRY to give it to him.
Wow, hi guys, what a weekend it’s been! Low lows and high highs. First of all, hello, STA! Nice to see you – it’s so good to know how much better you’re doing these days. Thanks for stopping by! H2H, lots to chew on, as usual, and lots of good assignments – I can always count on you for that! - and I’ll respond some below.
Hi, Anne! Yes, it seems to help us when we have boundaries and don’t let each other get carried away, because we both tend to be stubborn mules when we don’t get our way. It’s a good baseline to start with if you have difficult communication, or if your styles don’t mesh. Maybe you should give it a try with your H.
So… [big breath] I came this || close to throwing in the towel on Friday night. We had a fight about time issues, and I was feeling disrespected from that, and lately I’ve been feeling like I’m wasting my time, and so I was primed for a big temperature check. [bending over for my whacks] We started really getting heated in our discussion, and S. pointed out that it showed how little trust and understanding we had for each other, that I was immediately assuming bad intentions [an oldie but a goodie] and how he was immediately getting defensive and hostile.
So I suggested we break and not talk to each other for 15 minutes, and he agreed and we both did calming things – I picked up my book and he turned on his music while he straightened his room a bit. About 25 minutes later he made his way back into the living room, sat down, and started doing something when I started a conversation about the movies (at the noir festival) I’d seen that day (alone, not with MF). We immediately got into a spirited discussion about the films, and were having a great time. After about 30 minutes I said I’d like to go to bed (NOT continuing the conv we’d started fighting about, which was a 180 for me). He was very affectionate and close in bed, and asked the tried-and-true “What are you thinking?”
Well, he wasn’t expecting to hear what I said, which was, “I was wondering if you loved me, and I’m trying to figure out how to ask you.” Well, what I heard/interpreted (which has since been modified) was [BIG LONG pause, then hesitantly] “I do love you.”
JinB: Why the long pause? S.: [BIG LONG pause] Well, I do love you, like when I feel close, like I do right now. JinB: Are you saying that sometimes you’re not sure? S.: [BIG LONG pause] Sometimes, like when we’re fighting, I don’t know. But when we’re close, like after we have fun together, or like now when we talked about the movies, and I’m feeling really close to you, I do love you.
Here I can’t remember what was said, if anything, but after a while I said “S., I can’t fight for maybe. I won’t. It’s what I was doing before [before we split up], and I can’t do that to myself again. I won’t do it.”
To which he said nothing, and eventually we went to sleep. The next morning, I got up and made my coffee, heated up some leftover cranberry bread, gave him some in bed, which he ate while staring at me and neither of us saying anything, and then left to go to my yoga class. We had plans to make pizza at home that night, but I didn’t say anything and neither did he, and when the time came (6 p.m.) he called to ask if we were still on. I said yes, and the conv was strained although he was acting as if and being very cheerful, and about 30 minutes later I arrived at his house with fixins for pizza (dough-in-a-can, mushrooms, plum tomatoes, olives, tomato sauce, and mozzarella cheese). He was cleaning the kitchen when I arrived, and said he’d be out of my way in a minute. I said “Oh, no, pizza is an all-hands-on-deck activity,” to which he smiled, and caught me as I walked by to give me a hug. Things brightened considerably after that, and we had a great time, opened a bottle of wine, and ate stretched across the bed having a nice, fun, light conv., laughing at some music that was on, and generally laughing and making jokes. The pizza was delicious, and he kept saying so and validating my great idea and how fun it was. Then…
I pulled out the Scrabble game I’d smuggled in, and we played for FOUR hours. It was so much fun, and although I beat him, he had a great time fighting. When we were done and it was time to go to bed, he was all over me, hugging, kissing, smiling, etc. [Note to self: HELLO?! QT is a serious LL for him, even if I keep insisting that WOA is his primary!) He couldn’t stop talking about how fun it was, and when was the rematch?
When we got into bed, I was feeling weird about the conv we’d had the night before, and do I just act as if, or do I bring it up… I was feeling physically protective of myself, and I finally said very gently, “I’m feeling a little self-protective tonight,” and he said “I can feel that,” and I said “The conversation we had last night is still very much on my mind,” and he said “That’s understandable,” and we lay there for a while, him holding me the whole time, and he kissed me and said “I love you, Jennifer,” and I squeezed him, and lay there not knowing what to say, because how do you take that after what he said? On again off again? So I said, very gently, “I don’t know how to take that, after what you said last night.” He said he’d felt put on the spot when I asked him if he loved me, and was trying to be really careful about what he said, as the subject is so sensitive. Okaaaaay, isn’t that a little weird? I mean, if he loves me he loves me and what’s so sensitive about saying “Yes, I love you,” and leaving it at that? But I didn’t say any of that, just decided to let it go and see what happened over the next few days.
I did say that I was having reservations, after hearing what he said, about us going to spend Christmas with my family, and how important my family is to me, and how Christmas is a very special time of the year for us as a family, and I was saying all of this very gently and in a nonthreatening way, and he was validating the whole time. So I said my piece quickly and let it go, because he heard me, and understood.
So, we spent the next 12 hours ML and then he asked me to stay the afternoon (after he got out of bed around 1 to make me blueberry pancakes) to help work on the fence in his backyard, which is a project we’ve been cutting wood in Vermont for. He flirted nonstop with me, calling me his “apprentice,” and it was really nice. He was very affectionate afterward, too, and thanked me several times for helping and saying it was fun to work outside together (something that we love in Vermont).
Then, he had a dance class, then out with a friend afterward. I didn’t expect to see him (just a call), but around 11 he showed up at my place with a movie, and he kissed me about five times when he walked in (not the usual peck on the lips). So we settled into bed, and watched a movie, but not before he talked once more about how fun it was to make pizza together. I said we’d have to find more foods that required assembly, and he said “Yeah, we don’t cook much together, and that was fun, and we should try to figure out what else we can make together that’s fun.” So I see gaining weight on my horizon…
This morning he was affectionate, and took some pictures of me for a book I’m going to be in, which was fun because he took about 75 pictures and my eyes were either closed or half-closed in almost every one! We had fun being photographer and model, though.
OK this is long so I’ll get some analysis in later. Just wanted to update.
Please don't hate me by the end of this post. And for the record for skeptics out there, I have no nefarious designs on the fair Jennifer--I have enough fangs to deal with already!
Quote: S.: [BIG LONG pause] Well, I do love you, like when I feel close, like I do right now. JinB: Are you saying that sometimes you’re not sure? S.: [BIG LONG pause] Sometimes, like when we’re fighting, I don’t know. But when we’re close, like after we have fun together, or like now when we talked about the movies, and I’m feeling really close to you, I do love you.
That's a real doozy! I could not have dreamed up a better quote to distinguish between love in feel good modern world and marital love--I love you so long as it works for me. He may get there, but a it sounds like a tad more soul searching is in order.
Now Jennifer, I will not begrudge your happiness and oyur own desires, but there is an old saying about the necessity of procuring a bovine creature while dairy products are in abundant and no-cost supply.
Quote: So, we spent the next 12 hours ML.
Talk about a dairy farm!!!!!! It seems like I can't remember a total of twelve hours total these last twelve years combined!
Sadly, I guess this is another dilemma the modern women must face if she wants to take the R to the next stage. I really don't have any advice, other than to say I think your reply that you can't fight for maybe was the probably the best answer you could give. In many respects, I think you're in H2H land, just going with the flow one day at a time. But if you want more, I feel that your sitch is tough. Once again I ask, "What does S want?" Where does he want to be one year from now? Five? Ten? And was he sane enough to recognize that his inability to love you when things are not right is the death knell of any marriage? (H2H, is that better than ash heap?)
Jennifer, you also have to make decisions. The board can offer great advice on how to bring a person closer to you and how to work on your own issues, but it can't make the SO, H, or W, commit. Commitment is the real C word and given human nature, that takes hard work, for better or worse. Only you can decide what is the next step, what S is and is not capable of achieving, and what is right for you.
and then he asked me to stay the afternoon (after he got out of bed around 1 to make me blueberry pancakes) to help work on the fence in his backyard, which is a project we’ve been cutting wood in Vermont for. He flirted nonstop with me, calling me his “apprentice,” and it was really nice. He was very affectionate afterward, too, and thanked me several times for helping and saying it was fun to work outside together (something that we love in Vermont).
