OMG, I'm such a mess.... In the entire last eight months, I have never yelled at him NEVER!! I have tried so incredibly hard to be understanding and to see his side. But I completely and totally blew up at him. Told him that I was sick to death of hearing about other women. How they come into the bar. How they flirt with him. How they find him attractive. I told him he must get something out of it, and I am TIRED of his BS. I'm sick of his stupid "privacy." I told him it's no coincidence that everytime he gets funny around me, he's got some new "friend." He kept insisting that it's nothing. I told him that he doesn't get to have femal friends. He accused me of being controlling. I said no, I didn't say "no friends"--I said "no female friends."
He accused me of listening to other people instead of him again. (Ie, this board.) I said no, I'm just saying what has been in the back of my mind this entire time.
I'm sick of his flirting. He said it's just "harmless BS." I don't doubt that he sees it that way, but I don't. I told him there are certain things that I expect in a M. He said he can't change. I said he didn't want to. He agreed. I told him that was BS.
He said the strangest thing...told me to hit him. He actually shied away from me when I tried to touch him. Said they all had before. I asked who was "they." He mentioned a couple of ex-GF's. (WTF is that??) He said he that I would do this someday, that maybe I couldn't handle him after all.
He kept insisting that he wasn't doing anything wrong. That he was trying. That he had been going to see his mom or talking with his MF's. I asked him if he would stop talking with FF in AZ if I asked him to. He asked me what kind of question that was, insisted they weren't talking about anything personal. I said it doesn't matter. If he's not willing to stop talking with her just because it bothers me then there is a problem. If he said yes, then there wasn't a problem. He said if he said yes, then I would ask him to. (Answers that question!)
I told him I had a real problem with the fact that he wants to look up x-?? in CA. I have always had a problem with her, even before I was jealous. He said he just wanted "closure." I told him that he was looking for trouble.
He asked me if I was going to leave him. I said no--I have put a year's worth of hard work into this, and goddammit, I love him. He asked me what I wanted. I told him I wanted to fix it, and I expected him to put the work in, too.
He hemmed and hawed about it, tried to give me that BS about how he doesn't want to change and he likes it. I told him too bad. I felt like he was trying to turn it around on me and make me feel guilty--but I didn't let him. I retreated to the bedroom, just in absolute tears. I'll cry, but I won't chance after him!
He stayed in the other room for a few minutes. Then he got clothes on to leave. I didn't ask him to stay. I didn't chase him. Didn't beg like I have in the past. Just let him.
I tried to tell him there are certain things that change when you get M. The first example that popped up in my brain was "you don't get to sleep with other people." Bad idea! He got mad, said "You promised you'd never throw that in my face!" I told him "I'm not f'ing throwing it in your face!" He stormed out. I just let him. No calling. No nothing.
H just called, asked if he could come home... I said "of course." More later...
List of things he (or any married man) doesn't get to do: 1) Flirt with ANYONE 2) Have secret female friends 3) Look up exes for ANY reason 4) Act like you are abusive when nothing like that has EVER come up before (it's really manipulative to make himself into a victim in this discussion)
He needs cousneling and a firm reality check BADLY. He is not acting like a married man, and if you did have a child with him, you would be boiling with resentment because of it. Insist on some sort of help fo rhim, Nev. He is being manipulative and immature with you, and I don't think he even know it.
Hugs, Myrrh
One moment of patience may ward off great disaster. One moment of impatience may ruin a whole life.
Oh, (((((((Nevanna)))))))) Dear, dear one. I am so sorry to hear this. You have been doing great, but it appears that he doesn't want to change. I don't even know what to say. Do you have friends nearby?
You're in my thoughts and prayers, darling.
NSN My current thread LUVR ... Listen, Understand, Validate, and Respond
Ellie--I agree 100%. You've put it better than I did when I was talking with H.
BTW--he came back. I don't think he was even gone an hour. It was kind of strange, I was actually going to just let him walk. I don't think he's doing this on purpose, to be honest...a lot happened after he got home... (Although no more yelling. )
Anyway, we are headed to the gym here soon. I will post sometime tomorrow after I get to work. I had a bit of an epiphany. Well, actually, several.
Quick! Post before I leave for three weeks - I'm on the edge of my seat!
Seriously, Nevanna, there needs to be more than taking him back on an "I'm sorry" here. There are some serious issues HE needs to overcome for himself, and he needs some space to do it in. The fear of losing you is a place to start, but it won't carry him all the way through if you just forgive him. Of course, you have a part in this - we all do. But Rome wasn't built in a day, and your H isn't just going to ship into shape in an hour's time.
Be careful - we all care about you - and do what's right for YOU and what will make YOU happy, not just right NOW but for the rest of your life.
To be honest, H sounded like a completely different person up until three weeks or so ago. Actually, he was starting to repeat some of my DB-type lingo on his own in reference to solving things. I had stoppped posting for a long time because I just didn't feel the need to talk since things seemed to so straightened out.
So. Three weeks ago. Mothership comes back...
Last night sucked. Tons and tons of R talks. I'm not going to list it all...it's pretty repetive. But I did figure some things out... (And BTW, I honestly think that I did very little validation and a whole lot of arguing. Guess I just blew up.)
H feels like he has been trying and trying, and the changes he has made aren't good enough. He listed several. He doesn't stay out all hours of the night. (With the exception of nights that he is working.) He makes an effort to keep the house clean. (This used to really infuriate me!) He does not meet one-on-one with any women. He does not have personal/intimate conversations with them. The one time he did, he told me immediately and regrets it. He does not hang out with them alone. He is only talking with two--FF in AZ (which I knew about) and FF A, with whom he is friends with A and her husband H, and talks to them both. (True.) He has not run off and ditched me in favor of any new friends, male or female, like he has in the past. (True.) And that he has learned when to back off, and when to reevaluate when his temper is getting out of control, and from there when to apologize. (True.) H also did not realize that he had spoken with FF in AZ on a daily basis, and apologized for that. (After he had thrown a hissy fit when I brought this up earlier.)
H has also made it a point to not go to other people, and has been talking with me about how he feels. Which is probably why I'm getting a lot of the alien junk. But this is huge for me! He also went to his mother's house last night, instead of "out" or to someone else's place. Which, again, is a huge change for him.
H also thinks that I am trying to control him. I admit, I do have a tendency to be a control freak...and it spills over into everything, not just my R. He thinks my demand (and I do think it came across that way) that he not have any female friends is unreasonable. He is concerned that I will then not allow him to have any friends. That I will just want him to sit at home with me 24-7. In fact, he thinks I would be happy if were constantly together, and he never went out of the house. And, to be honest, I can see where my behavior gave him that impression. I do have a tendency to get very, very clingy.
I also figured out, afer about our third discussion of the day, H actually really does think that he is being reassuring to me. (!! ... ??) At the time, I genuinely thought he was trying to talk me out of my position. I didn't realize until something he said later, H was trying to rationally convince me of why my position was wrong. Which, of course, only heightened my anxieties...
I also got the impression that H thinks I disapprove of his alone time. I really don't...I'm not certain what I did to give him this impression...
Oh...and after I went all nuts about him talking to other women... H seems to think this, too, will lead to incredibly controlling behavior. His comments were "What if we work together? What if I have to talk to a woman at work?" I finally told him that these things had been building inside of me...and that I just snapped... H was bothered, asked why I hadn't come to him before. Said I just should have talked to him, since that's what I always wanted him to do. He's right on that...
We did come up with a plan at one point last night. H is going to take his GED, go on his trip, join the army (and pay off a lot our debts in the process), and then we are moving to Phoenix. Well, hopefully Phoenix, but Arizona no matter what. Moving there has always been the plan...I want to go, no matter how things turn out with us...
Oh. Which reminds me. His trip. Yes, the trip bothers me. But it comes from lots and lots of discussion we had months back. Even months ago, H had said that he was concerned about getting "weird" (=alien) again. I had pointed out that, before, it usually only takes two or three weeks of basically alone time for him to settle down. So, the idea had been, all these months, if that weirdness came back, that he would take some time for himself. That's why this trip has come up now.
Also, when I told H that I was starting to resent the fact that he just gets to run off and have fun for a couple of weeks, he went and signed up for the GED within days. I didn't push that time. I just told him. (Unlike all of our conversations yesterday...) And, unlike any other time he has tried to do the school thing, he seems a whole lot more motivated and actually focussed.
It has also occurred to me that maybe I haven't been clear to H on what sorts of things he can do so that I feel better. He was very frustrated at one point...asked me list off all of the things I wanted him to do. I told him: 1) No more flirting. 2) I want to be included in his activities. 3) No female friends. I think I said a couple more, but I can't recall...yes, I know, I was heavy-handed, but he pushed and pushed...
So he went to MIL's for awhile. I went to bed. When he came back--and it wasn't terribly late--he woke me up and drug me out of bed and over to the computer. Said he wanted to show me. I was completely blind without my contacts in. But H actually showed me his email. Showed me the inbox. Insisted I read some of his emails...what he had said, what they had said... He was actually visibly shaking, and seemed really ticked off, but he showed me his email. (And, having snooped in the past, nothing looked "altered" to me...) He did tell me he didn't see why he had to show me his private messages--and seemed honestly ticked at me. But he still did it.
We did have another lousy R talk after that one. H insisted--said if I didn't want him talking to other people (and I mean women, BTW, and he knows this) then I'm going to have to listen. Fair enough. The whole thing just left me with a horrible, sick feeling. He admitted that he is terrified of us splitting up permanently. I told him that I didn't want that, either. He came pretty close to having an anxiety attack on me...I just held him... In a strange sort of way, I think he's feeling all of the things I felt when he walked out on me. He admitted that he wanted to run, more than anything, but he wasn't doing it. (Again, he's actually doing something...) But that he hated that look on my face when he hurt me, how he hated the sound I made. (Have I ever mentioned that I absolutely and completely lost it?? Yeah, it was pretty bad...) And that he never, ever wanted to do that to me again.
H admitted that he's just not satisfied with his life, and he didn't know why. I suggested it may be that he's not doing what he wants to be doing right now--that I had been very cranky and irritable when I wasn't working in a career I liked. He thought that might be it... He mentioned again that he would like to live by himself for a little while (as in a short lease, just two or three months). Not "seperated," just alone. He said he never got to do that, and feels he missed out on something. I, actually, can see his point. He also said he feels like there is just too much going on, and that's why he can't get his head wrapped around whatever is bothering him underneath.
H told me that my touch actually didn't feel right. He was snuggled up very close to me. I told him it was okay...I had felt that way before... (Actually, on three different occasions.) He said he didn't like it, and I told him I hadn't either. He said he wanted it to go away, and I said it would, just to be patient...
We wound up ML. I found it very soothing. H didn't. It helped relax me and put me to sleep. (I swear, our sex life always seems to improve when we fight... )
I was a very, very weird place this morning. Nearly in tears all morning at work. I seriously considered asking him to stay at MIL's for a couple of days. But I know better than do anything when I'm this conflicted. I do feel calmer now...
H called me just a little bit ago. He wanted to know if I was okay. I told him I was. He told me he loved me. I mentioned I was going to have dinner with FF tonight. He said he was glad--and that he has plans as well with MF. So that works out. He apologized for being inconsiderate of my feelings yesterday. (And, BTW, this was no prompting from me!) I do understand...I was pushing, he was pushing...not good.
We also talked about my upcoming business trip to Chicago. I'm attending two classes, with a weekend in between. I told him I was planning on visiting my really good FF in between, since she lives up in that area. He got excited for me--he knows how much I love this FF. (She's one of the best friends that I have ever had! And I don't get to spend much time with her now. ) H then really surprised me--asked me if I wanted him to come visit me while I'm Chicago, after he realized I was going to be gone for 10 days straight. (!!! ) I told him that would be cool. He said he didn't want me to "get all crazy," and it would be a good test for all the stuff we've done to his car.
I just said "Yeah, I know, I do get that way sometimes." We talked a bit, before H realized I was taking him literallty. (I really did mean that I realize I get paranoid sometimes.) He said he hadn't meant it that way...pointed out that he often says things much more harshly than he means. Which is true. I sometimes wonder how much of our conflicts are because I'm reading some subtlety into what he's saying that he doesn't mean.
He wanted to know again if I was okay, if we were okay. I said yes. He said he wished he didn't get these weird feelings, and he was trying his hardest to figure it out. But he realizes that it isn't me. (Which is an improvement over the past.) He also asked that I not accuse him of things he's not doing, and to not invade his privacy. I agreed to that. (Hey, the guy did show me his emails...)
And I do have a tendency to flip out on him. I realize the last few weeks have really set me off--I have been out of control. I'm not saying everything he's doing/saying is okay, just that I am certainly contributing to this mess.
Which brings me back to something... Yeah, so, three weeks ago, mothership returns to snatch away H. Well, part of H, anyway. What's different? Why were fine at Christmas?? Well, at least, I can look at how I'm acting different. I have gotten needy again. And I mean, really needy. Wanting more and more and more time again with H. Less GAL on my part. H has made a couple of comments about this recently, and I don't think he sees the connection, but I do. H needs to get out and away some, and I do mean on a healthy level; I, however, keep pursuing--or, at the least, throwing a tantrum. H just wants to run faster. In the past, when I have backed off, he has settled down--including some of his weird alien talk--and come back around pretty quickly.
And H does respond to DB, very well. When I stick to it. What's worked in the past is GAL (in other words, not so dependent on H), WOA, AOS, and not being overly paranoid. (And I do mean "overly.") Oh...and I can't be pushy. I was definately that--and more--over the weekend. He just shuts down when I get demanding. Gentle suggestions--and then dropping it--has worked in the past. Like when I told him I had a problem with his temper.
I don't think H is intending to hurt me. I genuinely believe he is trying. Looking back, he is acting a ton differently than he did a year ago. Maybe he's not doing all of the things I think he should be...but that's not to say he isn't giving it an effort.
I also think it's a case of H just genuinely "not getting it." He doesn't know what I'm expecting, and maybe I haven't been clear--at least, clear in a way that he understands.
I do know that the more disapproving I get, the more likely he is to just do it anway. Yes, I know, childish. He knows it to. Still true. (I'm hoping some army time kicks this one out of him...)
I also gave him several opportunities to leave. Said "If you don't like it, you can always go." He'd ask if that was what I wanted, and I'd tell him no. But he didn't leave. (At least, other than his little excursion to cool off--and buy us lunch. ) Actually got up in my face at one point, and said we were going to figure this out. Sounds hostile, yes, but I know it wasn't meant that way.
Oh...I keep forgetting one of the things that really, really works well. Ignoring the nonsense and thanking him for the all the good stuff he does. It doesn't work immediately, but I definately see an improvement down the road...I haven't been doing this as much as I should have, lately.
I do feel like I may have slipped back into some old patterns the last few weeks. No, I don't think completely accounts for everything that's going on...but I do think it is contributing...
And Ellie, don't worry, we weren't planning on having that baby immediately anyway. The plan has always been for him to get the GED, do the army thing, us move to AZ and get a house, and for him to start school. Then baby. I have always been baby crazy...even from the first year we were together.
And I am just dead tired today. Too much going on yesterday, and up late last night. I wonder if anybody at work can tell... I saw this woman on TV the other day--"Extreme Makeover Home Edition," I belivee. Her house had burned down, and it was just her and her three daughters. She was a pretty lady, a big smile on her face. But her eyes...they were just so sad...it was clear to me she was smiling through some sort of really intense pain. At the time, I thought she looked like an LBS...come to find out, her husband was killed in a car wreck, and then her house burned down. Poor woman. I sometimes wonder if I have that same look on my face.
Sorry if this is really rambling. I'm really scattered today.
I certainly gave him the option.
I do have a tendency to get very, very clingy.
) I told him that would be cool. He said he didn't want me to "get all crazy," and it would be a good test for all the stuff we've done to his car.