Great responses here...thanks so much. I could debate with her till the cows came home, e.g.: 1. Given that you believe men and their sex drives are evil, what is your obligation to this marriage you have with a man? Should you get out of it immediately to protect your integrity? 2. Given your belief that multiculturalism and diversity and tolerance are all good things, why are your views, namely, that love and sex are not related and that the male sex drive can be an evil thing, paramount to my views, namely that love and sex can enhance each other in a M, and that my sex drive is not evil? Why is my view unworthy of any concession by you? 3. What if I were to lose my drive to nurture our daughter because I concluded that this drive is evil? It makes us do irrational things like rush into traffic to get them out of harm's way, it makes us spend money on things which do not directly benefit us, it keeps us from sleeping all night when they cry. What if I stopped giving our DD3 any attention? My views are not in the majority, but I can back them up, for the purposes of debating them.
And I could go on.
She is taking refuge in a disembodied intellectualism so as to avoid dealing with the parts of an intimate relationship she finds uncomfortable. But she would never admit to this.
As far as seeking comfort in physical love while all around you is hunger, and poverty, and prejudice, and pollution, etc. There isn't anything wrong with this (unless you become obsessed with it, a la the Nops ). Why would you choose to wallow in the injustices of the world all day every day, when you can take a few moments of a day and lose yourself in the embrace of your lover? What about that is irrational? I'd say it's more irrational to believe that your constant wallowing is going to make the world a better place if you don't also take care of yourself.
I don't know if Corri is reading, but I wanted to mention the book she recommended to me, "Boundaries in Marriage." It talks about letting an "intruder" come between you as a couple. This intruder can be the obvious, another lover, but it can also be workaholism, alcoholism, and even something like a child, e.g. giving all of your attention to your children and saving nothing for your mate. My W has apparently decided to invite this philosophy of hers as an intruder into our marriage. The purpose, whether it is that she actually believes it or whether it's just a smokescreen (or both), is ultimately unimportant. The intruder must go.
I especially liked the intruder part. Good luck to you, my friend. You have a great handle on things. I hope the best, also, for your wife. She is voluntarily making herself prisoner to her own (fcuked up) ideology in order to protect herself from the scariness of marital intimacy. She cannot be happy in this prison. I hope that she realizes what life has to offer, both sexually and just by letting your mate IN to your real world--minus all the smoke and mirrors and rants.
Honey
P.S. NOPette, I loved your post--it was a gem! Choc and WB, you both get A+'s in logic, my favorite college course. Karen and Lil, you gals and I will just have to sit back and scratch our heads as to why a woman would let a smart, funny, attractive man like Hairy slip through her fingers.
Stay calm, HD, and figure out what you want to do. She has talked more about sex in the last month than she has in a year! Whatever you are doing is working.
Of course you can have sex without love. And of course, while H's W doesn't think so, love and sex go very well together and creates a very special bond between two people. I have a sister who has no idea what intimacy (sex) means. And she was married for 20 years, now divorced...to this day, she cannot openly discuss sex, she is far too uncomfortable with the subject. She is just not a sexual person, and even moreso, will not allow herself to be. I also think that many spouses who do not want to have sex are not feeling "romantic" love for their H/W; maybe more of a "family" type of love? Perhaps not in all cases, but in many. Sometimes that changes, many times it does not.
HD, What a tough thing to deal with. You've got my vote for most confusing sitch.
My first reaction was "kick her a$$ to the curb" but I re-read her comments of this morning and had a second reaction that surprised me. I felt sorry for her.
She said...that the SSM book has “backfired” because it told her to consciously make herself have sexual thoughts and, when she does, she is worried about how it has the potential to “take her over” and make her do irrational things.
Wow! The battle raging inside of her must be huge! She is forced by SSM to recognize her "responsibilities" toward you sexually. When she has sexual thoughts her desire makes her feel that she may lose control. So she steps in with goofy "logic" about sex vs. love, M/F power, and societal mores to suppress her sexual desires.
I think you've got one super-hot, HDW in the making! If she was totally given to the intellectual babble she speaks, she wouldn't look at the porn site and certainly wouldn't invite you to see with her. She LIKES the way it makes her feel! She just doesn't want to admit it.
Maybe your best course of action is to behave toward her in a nice, sympathetic way, expressing understanding at the battle raging within her. Take an, "I know that you can't win over your own super-hot sexual desires so I'll just be patient" attitude. Reinforce the truth that "letting go of yourself" isn't an abdication of power, it's being strong enough to trust someone else. (Her clients don't give up their power by hiring her. They exercise their power by trusting her.)
I can see the most hope in her words than anything you've ever posted! You're going to have to HOY by being confident as she works this out in herself. She's having a "crucible moment".
Good luck, HD. You've got one wild woman ahead of you!
Sheesh, barney, thanks for the vote, and for the ever-so-brief image in my mind of my W as a "super-hot HDW." I, too, feel sorry for her some of the time. When I feel anger toward her, I consciously tell myself to feel love, and compassion toward the b!tch. Did I just say that? My internal monologue betrays me.
Anyway, thanks to all. I don't know how I'd cope without all of my imaginary friends here on SSM.
Quote: Reinforce the truth that "letting go of yourself" isn't an abdication of power, it's being strong enough to trust someone else. (Her clients don't give up their power by hiring her. They exercise their power by trusting her.)
Re your wife, I'd like to offer a different take. She's right AND you're right.
She's right that sex is often separate from love, especially for men. Also, she's right about it leading to dangerous beliefs and behavior. After all, child molestation, rape, and sexual slavery are about sex but have nothing to do with love. When I was molested at age 5 by an adult male relative who was babysitting, that had nothing to do with love.
Also, even while our minds may be repulsed by some types of pornography, our bodies, including women's bodies, might still respond and become aroused; so there's some dissonance there.
On the other hand, you're right when you talk about making love giving you a happiness and closeness you can't get otherwise; and part of that is due to male physiology, specifically neurobiology. Women have an abundance of oxytocin, the "bonding hormone". Men don't have very much oxytocin EXCEPT that levels rise dramatically during sex, specifically during ejaculation. Changes in oxytocin and vasopressin secretion during sexual activity in men. I first read about this in What Could He Be Thinking by Michael Gurian. While Gurian says that many of our societal changes toward equality are positive, we need to accept that men's and women's brains are different, and he uses neurobiology to explain this. He also explains the difference in men between "I want to have sex" and "I want to have sex WITH YOU"; and there is a difference. You don't just want sex, you want to make love to your wife, you want to be close to her; and ML with her makes you feel close and bonded to her in a way that goes far beyond two bodies having sex. I'd quote from the book except my H is out of town, and he who hates relationship books of any kind is reading this book. I highly recommend it as it goes beyond Men are From Mars, Women are From Venus and uses actual science and research. (BTW, Gurian's concepts are being used with great success in some school systems including one in Kansas City
The Gurian Institute - Success ). You can read more info about Gurian's work, including his books on gender differences, here: Michael Gurian . As an intelligent person, would your wife be willing to read something like What Could He be Thinking not only to help her understand you but also her stepsons.
As for advice, I've received so much bad advice in the past that I hesitate to give much advice myself because everybody's different. But, as somebody who'd been in an adversarial type marriage for years until recently and who's seeing remarkable progress and success using Michele's concepts, I can identify a couple of things that have worked for me.
First, I stopped seeing H as an adversary and worked as hard as I could to try to understand him and see things from his point of view no matter how different it was from mine. I really listened to what he was saying and I validated, validated, and validated. The more I truly understood him and accepted him, the closer we became and the more willing he became to try to understand me. Like Michele says, he wasn't wrong, he was merely different and different's okay.
There's one other possibility that I'll throw out simply because it really threw me for a loop when it happened. Although I was molested as a young child and it had some immediate and residual effects on my life, for the most part it didn't affect my life too negatively. I had parents who loved me although for some reason I don't remember I never told them what happened, and I was pretty and smart and well-liked by teachers and friends. It didn't affect me sexually later in life, and I was fortunate to have good boyfriends and good dating and sexual experiences for the most part.
But, as my oldest son approached the age I was when I was molested, I started having nightmares (the same 3 types of nightmares I'd had after being molested-- the color red (blood?) , a man that I thought was the devil standing over me , and being hurt or threatened but not being able to call out for help) and panic attacks. I don't have a lot of faith in therapists anymore, but I think the therapist I saw around this time was right in her diagnosis. She said what I was experiencing wasn't uncommon and she thought my nightmares and panic attacks were caused by fear that I couldn't protect my kids just as my parents couldn't or didn't protect me. You and your W have a young daughter, and I was wondering if perhaps some of your W's concerns and statements might reflect a fear for your daughter if your W has a past history of molestation as many do.
BTW, even if your W doesn't want to read What Could He Be Thinking?, you might want to read it yourself. Gurian said he wrote it mostly for women to understand men, but my H is reading it now and finds it very interesting, and I intend to give it to my sons to read to help them understand why they get so irritated with their GFs at times.
Last edited by eyesopened; 11/19/0407:18 PM.
Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there. Will Rogers
To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything, and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly be broken. C. S. Lewis
Quote: This intruder can be the obvious, another lover, but it can also be workaholism, alcoholism, and even something like a child, e.g. giving all of your attention to your children and saving nothing for your mate. ... The intruder must go.
It's a bit difficult to eliminate the intruder if it's one/all of your children (my sitch). Good luck getting rid of yours. It sounds like a challenge!
). Why would you choose to wallow in the injustices of the world all day every day, when you can take a few moments of a day and lose yourself in the embrace of your lover? What about that is irrational? I'd say it's more irrational to believe that your constant wallowing is going to make the world a better place if you don't also take care of yourself.
Karen and Lil, you gals and I will just have to sit back and scratch our heads as to why a woman would let a smart, funny, attractive man like Hairy slip through her fingers.
If she was totally given to the intellectual babble she speaks, she wouldn't look at the porn site and certainly wouldn't invite you to see with her. She LIKES the way it makes her feel! She just doesn't want to admit it. 