Just perfect. On the same day that Paul has his big success with his W, I am heartened by this, and go home with love in my heart for my W. And now, it’s after 11pm, and I’m downstairs writing in my house full of sleeping people and I just feel like giving up. How did I get here?
It started when my W, who has been searching on the Internet for a new DVD player tells me that, in typing in www.naughtycodes.com, which normally gives you discount codes for online retailers, told me that she misspelled it, and left out the “y” at the end of naughty. She said she was taken to a site called “naughtyass.com” and it was a porn site. She laughs, and takes me into the study to show me. Sure enough, she misspells it and the porn site pops up, complete with money shots and lots of pictures. We laugh together and then I excuse myself to go upstairs to bed. She stays on, and apparently looks at pics for about 10 minutes.
When she came to bed, I asked her how it made her feel, offended or amused or aroused. She said it was hard to answer, that she could see how a man could be aroused, but that it was just kind of gross to her. And then she said that she has come to believe that sex has nothing to do with love.
Huh? I tell her that I certainly don’t feel that way about it. That I equate the two, that she is the only person in the world who I want to ML with, and that it gives me a feeling of love for her, and being loved by her, that I don’t get from any other thing. I say that, “the day can be going to sh*t, and it’s okay, because I am lying naked next to you, touching you and being touched by you and I feel great.”
She says, “perfect example of how this drive to have sex can cause irrational, even dangerous behavior and beliefs. The day is going to sh*t and you’re happy because you’re having sex.” She goes on to say that animals have this same drive and will mate in otherwise dangerous situations. That humans are the same. That equating love with sex is just humanity’s way of promoting safety and monogamy. That it’s just a societal constraint and that love really doesn’t have anything to do with it, just that we’ve learned to see it that way.
I, of course, say, I know the way I feel, and it is a happiness and closeness that I can’t get any other way, although I can feel close doing other things...just not THAT close. She comes back with more societal stuff and says that it’s really just about power. (Her shorthand way of saying men’s power over women) I keep on coming back to try to personalize it – just me and her– and she keeps on saying society this and society that and power and, that I’m just manifesting society’s view equating love and sex, and she just doesn’t feel that way. I ask her if she ever has sexual thoughts. She says, “I have the ability to have those thoughts, and can get myself aroused, but the sex drive is so strong and causes such irrational thought and behavior, that I just don’t do it.”
She acknowledges that she’s in the minority with this way of thinking. I say that it’s not about whether she’s in the minority or majority, it’s just not the way I thought she felt about it when we met, and that I wished she had told me she thought this way a long time ago. She replies by saying that she doesn’t think she’s felt this way for very long, but that she feels this way now. (She is, of course, anticipating the ‘bait and switch’ charge I have leveled at her in the past, but didn’t plan to level at her tonight, at least not more explicitly than, “I wished you had told me earlier.”)
I told her how much I missed holding her, touching her, feeling her naked body next to mine, and asked her if she missed it. Not really, was her reply.
I was quiet for a while, about two minutes, really trying to HOM, and then I asked her a question, but she said she was sleeping and that the discussion was over. I told her that certainly seemed like a power play and I didn’t appreciate it, and I got up and came down here.
Does this woman have a soul? A heart? A clitoris? I am doubtful of all three.
Good morning. It is morning here, if it makes you feel better to know that tomorrow will come
You know, in a way, her rambling sounds a bit like my H's, when he continually tells me that there's no point in talking to me because I'm just going to get upset, it's a wall of talk so that there's no way to get inside.
If I think of myself, I know there are times when I get in a 'Chair' mood, and don't want to tell anyone what's wrong 'cause I figure it should be obvious and if they really cared they would know, I wonder if that's what our Ss are doing...but what is it they are saying? I have enough struggle understanding Finnish, not to mention this cryptic 'smoke-screen-speak'
How can you make her understand that porn is to ML what (excuse me folks) 'Pop' is to music - it's a drug created to make money. Maybe you could validate her by saying that it does seem as though porn doesn't have much to do with love, and it does seem to have to do with power - and then say that in your book, it doesn't have much to do with ML either.
Hey, you had a convo with your W. She shared some things with you that might have even been difficult for her to say. That's more than I got yesterday, you lucky b
Nuts - because I am beginning to believe that she actually believes this crap.
I have to think about this one. Can you add any more detail?
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Even more interesting, why did she stay and look for so long, after all, it was supposedly disgusting. Does she exhibit morbid curiosity about other things she finds distasteful ??
I am still thinking.. (smoke alert!!)
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
quote: ---------- And then she said that she has come to believe that sex has nothing to do with love. ----------
Based on what research? She is a lawyer, how about citing some cases here.
I think you need to ask her "precisely, how did you determine that love and sex are not directly related?" It's time for you to stand up to her and call her on this crap.
Is she baiting you, HD, just for a fight, or maybe to see if you will stand up to her and NOT walk off?
Why did she want to show you the ass site? Talk about mixed signals. "Let me see if the sight of naked asses turns Harry on so that I can turn him down."
Annnnk. Ok. maybe my advice to you earlier was wrong. Maybe it is time for you to kick ass and take names. Maybe you should revisit Corri's post to you.
I will tell you this - don't move out of your bedroom. Put her out if need be. She can sleep in the basement. It is time to set a few boundaries.
I think you should show up for bed every night, naked. Make sure that she sees you. In fact, I would make sure that she sees you naked as much as possible. Make sure that you ignore *her* when she is naked. Go and read Michele's advice on doing a 180. That does NOT mean being a doormat. That means being a nice brick wall. Time for you to stop dallying about looking lovelorn. Cowboy up and mount your steed. It's time to tear down a few misconceptions in your relationship.
You need to tell her in no uncertain terms "I will not stay in a sexless relationship. So, whatever it takes, you and I are going to fix our problems. I am not going to give up until our relationship is back on track, and we are not going to take two years to do it."
I also think it is a good idea for you to put some Hustler magazines in your bedroom bath. I think she needs to see sex every time she turns around. I know you have to temper what you can do because of kids.
I am serious about the above suggestions. I am also concerned that she really is believing some of the stuff you have posted previously. If she really is beginning to believe some over the top stuff like you posted tonight, then it is time for a professional, and I don't mean a marriage counselor. Only you can figure out if she is pulling your chain or not.
I would damn sure find out what she is really thinking.
Sorry for the rambling. Damn if she didn't pull my chain and I don't even now her... :-)
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Thought I'd chime in on this one and maybe shed some light on how love and sex can become disconnected. I can love my H and I can ML with him, but not both at the same time. It would seem that I am not skilled in emotional multitasking. When I feel stressed, I don't also feel horny. It was in recent months that I can even feel aroused durning ML. I assume that if I keep working on it, I'll get to a point where ML and loving will inhabit the same space and time. There is an ancient disconnection between my brain and my body. Living in my head protected me from having to think about sex in physcial terms. I could intellectualize physical intimacy. It's a protection that I am trying to shed.
I don't mind the sun sometime
The images it shows
I can taste you on my lips
And smell you in my clothes
Cinnamon and Sugar
And softly spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through someone elses eyes
BHS-"Pepper"
This is the thing that I zeroed in on: Mrs Hairy said
Quote: I have the ability to have those thoughts, and can get myself aroused, but the sex drive is so strong
She is admitting that she has a very strong sex drive, and that when she thinks about sex she becomes aroused (or is capable of becoming aroused) to the point of irrationality. I think this is a huge admission. How many LDs in the couples on this board say they have no interest at all in sex. What she seems to be saying is that her interest is so strong that it will overpower her rational self, if she allows it.
This societal crap makes me want to throw up. I had a girl friend years ago who used to spout that "patriarchy" stuff, too. Not that is isn't true in many ways and up to a point, but it has NO place in a bedroom discussion between two individuals. It's a big smoke screen.
I think sex and love can certainly be separate. Most of the time in my life, they have been separate. It would thrill me to death to have really great sex with the man I love. The greatest sex I ever had was with a man I was not in love with... but it went on for over 22 years (off and on) and just got better over time. We were totally physically compatible, like the perfect dance partners for each other. We loved each other, but were never in love and could never have lived together. He died a few years ago.
The sex I've had with the men I've been married to/lived with was never the joyous, playful, passionate kind of thing that I had with this man. It was usually tentative, fraught with eggshell-walking, tension, etc. Yeah, I had orgasms... but I've never had the true simultaneous experience of great love and great sex in the same encounter except in isoloated events, usually early in the R. Current BF and I have had this experience a couple of times. I should say, "I've had the experience with him." When I've told him about those two times, he doesn't remember them. My BF doesn't seem to connect sex and love either... he's very affectionate, but sex to him seems to be dangerous and creates too much vulnerability.
Mrs Hairy is hiding behind a huge political wall... Has she been reading Sonia Johnson, the rabid feminist?
I'm with Lillie - can you say "Big deflection?" Mrs. HD almost certainly has a big drive based on her comments but she is hiding it, circumventing it etc...for reasons that even she may not know. I think my H squelches his due to anxiety, fears about vulnerability etc...
Random comment: I feel as if all of us are looking for life with all the adjectives and our parnters can only cope with the noun. They want a marriage. We want a loving, juicy, sexy, fabulous marriage. They want a husband or wife or partner but they are afraid of the fullness of what each gender brings to the table. A toast to the hedonists we are!
God, I feel for you, dude. It is one thing for a LD spouse to open up and say "this is how I feel"; it's quite another (and more devastating to hear) "this is how I feel, and I know how YOU feel about it and how important it is to you, and yet I choose to not only DO nothing about it, but I don't even want to talk about it with you -- even though I brought it up."
I think her problem is more with her beliefs about feminism and how they relate to the marital relationship, than they are about SEX. As much as you tried, you need to keep on telling her "I agree, a lot of people can be that way -- and that's a shame. But that's not how I feel."
In other words, as someone else suggested, agree that "society may sh!t on women sometimes, but I would never do that to you."
This morning she said “I’m sorry” but I gather she’s just sorry that she said something that made me sad/mad. She came up to me and gave me a hug. I did not hug her back. She walked away, pissed, muttering something under her breath. (I used to do this, but when she called me on it, I realized how immature it was. Now, when I hug her and she doesn’t hug me back–which is about half the time–I just chalk it up to experience, and enjoy the fact that I got to hug her).
She spouted some more societal stuff, how sex has caused men to humiliate women, mutilate them, sometimes kill them. How Islamic women have to cover their bodies so that they are not seen as evil temptresses. How women don’t have the same type of drive. How she is dealing with this disdain for sex – trying to reconcile her global/societal view with trying to make me happy and ML with me. I reiterated that I would not have sex with prostitutes, would not have an affair, but also would not live indefinitely in a celibate marriage.
She said that the SSM book has “backfired” because it told her to consciously make herself have sexual thoughts and, when she does, she is worried about how it has the potential to “take her over” and make her do irrational things. She feels sorry for men who feel this way all the time. I told her that I can think of arousing thoughts but check myself and not end up doing irrational things. She said the potential is what scares her, and so she now just won’t make herself have these arousing thoughts.
I told her that, academically, I can understand these feelings and concerns of hers, but that in the limited scope of our M, sex and intimacy is okay. She said that is what she is trying to reconcile. But she gave no prognosis for her reconciliation. She said that she is an academic thinker, and that this was why she had started to question the whole sex/love thing.
She accused me of being mad at her, especially when I didn’t hug her back. I told her that, initially, I might have been mad, but I was past that. I told her that I felt hopeless. I told her that I didn’t feel like hugging back and that I should be able to choose to say “no” when she hugs me (how many times has she said/done that to me?)
I told her that I didn’t want a receptacle. I wanted a willing, enthusiastic partner that was happy to ML with me. I told her that, based on what she was saying, I now thought that the last few times we had ML, she hadn’t felt any desire for me and, instead, had just resigned herself to be my receptacle. She categorically denied this. (Which is good, I guess).
We actually parted on better terms, but I still don’t know where that leaves us. I appreciate your responses, and NOPkins, I really like your idea about going to bed naked. It’s just so damn cold in that bedroom . . . in more ways than one.
