Well here's the "post mortem." Wish I had read Nopkins suggestions before hand.
The date was nice (H thanked me for it twice) but H showed up "armed" - he had been car shopping and wanted to discuss the various models etc... So...that was the subject matter. We did hold hands, caress each others upper thighs etc.. during the movie. It was mild but nice.
H noticed the outfit - he said I looked "nice" (it was definately more than "nice") but I think there was a latent effect because on Sunday he looked me up and down and said - you still haven't lost the big bb's - we'll have to work on getting you pregnant again so they can stay. When we went to bed on Sat night I had to run in and feed the baby just as we were getting into bed and H had gone to sleep by the time I got back (10 min). I settled into "cuddle" position but ran my hand down the back of his butt/thighs and across his chest just to test the waters anyway. In the morning he made a point to say, "I'm sorry I fell asleep on you last night" and to say to the baby "You have to start letting us get some sleep." So, no sex but some realization is dawning on him that he will need to make a move.
That being said, he is seeing the C alone today (per her request). I sent him an e-mail telling him that I am wondering if he can see the problem and if he is feeling dragged in to see the C (Barb). Portion of his e-mail: ___________________________________________________________
On what I can see vs. what I can't see. I can see: I can see that we're both hurting. I can see that we're having difficulty understanding each others reasons for hurting. I can see that we both feel completely committed to understanding and healing those hurts for ourself and for each other, and that's where Barb can help. I can see that we are both committed to having a thriving, growing, wonderful, life-long marriage.
I can't see: I can't see much past the pain and the anguish of my own feelings of worthlessness, embarrassment, uselessness, incompetency, stupidity, ineffectiveness, shame, humiliation, and disgrace. Its not that I don't want to see, I just feel overwhelmed by such feelings of self-loathing. ___________________________________________________________
He wants to characterize this as a communication issue. As in, "if he can just communicate to me that he has a million reasons to not have sex maybe I will quit bringing it up."
I am disappointed with myself for not being direct (blatant) this weekend. I will work on it this week.
Quote: I can't see: I can't see much past the pain and the anguish of my own feelings of worthlessness, embarrassment, uselessness, incompetency, stupidity, ineffectiveness, shame, humiliation, and disgrace. Its not that I don't want to see, I just feel overwhelmed by such feelings of self-loathing.
MY GOODNESS!
Is this really how he feels, Karen? That just floors me. Is he referring to his feelings with respect to your sexual relationship?
Or, specifically, where would such intense feelings of self loathing be coming from?
This has really struck me. I wonder if my own H feels something similar but just does not have the verbal capacity to express it in such a way as your husband. Wow.
As far as the communication goes, here is what happened with me: My husband wanted to do that also--he thought that I just wasn't understanding or hearing his reasons for not wanting sex. I DID hear them, but I was asking him to overcome these obstacles. He couldn't see a way to do this so he just kept repeating the same things over and over. He still does this, btw, but he is learning that my response is going to be the same, also. And he doesn't like my response cause I point out areas in which HE can change. For instance if he says he is tired, I say that he can stop going to daily Mass and go in to work later. He fails to see that his life is as it is because of CHOICES he makes. Sure there are things he cannot change (or cannot change for the time being) such as his job and the amount of time he spends there, etc. But others he can change, or ADAPT to the situation. This last one is in reference to having kids. Our oldest is five years old. At what point is he going to adapt to the fact that our house is now full of children and we have to find ways of being sexual in light of that fact?
Anyway, please advise on what could be making your husband feel so rotten. That email was very powerful.
HP
P.S. How old is your baby and good for you for lookin so hot on Saturday!
Well - I think that sex is a small part of that shame that he feels but he expresses all that more in regard to business (self-employed, things have been tough) and in regard to "failing to express his love" to me. He does lots of loving things e.g. cooking dinner and having a bunch of people over for my birthday, randomly buying me flowers, giving me the occasional card etc... He says these are his "weak attempts at showing me how he feels." He feels upset and frustrated that my answer seems to be "that's nice how about touching me." I think I need to communicate to him that I understand that he is going through a bunch of things that I can't fix and that I understand how they could make him disinterested but I cannot understand why that would stop him from offering me some oral or manual sex.
I would bet that your H does have some similar feelings. I am currently reading a book called "If men could talk" - it is writte by Alon Gratch, PHD and discusses issues of Shame, Emotional Absence, Masculine Insecurity, Sexual Acting out etc... in a way that is very helpful in seeing through some typical guy stuff. BTW - this is NOT a man bashing book. I am very respectful of my H and many other men. It isn't any easier to be a man than it is to be a woman.
Your H could simply be exaggerating his feelings to the C for support/sympathy. It's possible that he's trying to say that he doesn't respect himself and couching in "it's the end of the world" terms. At least, I hope so for your sake.
Yeah Barney - I think there is some exaggeration. BTW - babygirl is 6mos old (his first) and I think that the baby has something to do with it although this issue has been present for much longer than my pregnancy with her.
Well, I don't think he's failing to show his love for you--he's just expressing his love in a way that HE wants love shown to him. I think it's great that he is affectionate and kind and gives you gifts! All marks of a good husband, in my opinion.
I have been doing an experiment for about 2 weeks involving thanking my husband more often and giving him compliments. It is very difficult as he does not accept them gracefully and quite often acts irritated when I say it. However, it seems to be having a small effect so I will keep it up. What I'm getting at is: do you know what your H's love language is? How proficient are you at speaking it? (and btw, I am not a huge fan of this book and do NOT think it is the cure-all that many people do) These last two weeks I have also been making an effort to do more service-related things. Unlike the premise of the book, it is not causing my H to want to rip my clothes off but he does seem happier and less put-upon. And I don't mind doing it..I just have to make a concerted effort to remember it.
Anyway, I know how frustrating it is to be a wife with a lot to give and have a mate who seems uninterested. It sounds like he will get there, he just has some things to work out. I hope all goes well at his appt today.
Has it always been like this in your marriage, or did things change suddenly?
H is a wonderful husband. Part of the problem is that he does a tremendous amount of things for me, the kids and around the house and they make ME feel like ripping HIS clothes off but....that doesn't seem to be an option very often.
I don't characterize his efforts as "failing" but he does. Like you, I don't see the love language concept as a cure all but merely helpful. He seems to best appreciate service things and he likes to get a card or flowers for his desk (works from home) sometimes and I think he also needs non-sexual touching although he doesn't reach out for much of it. When I concentrate on these things he generally seems more positive about life in general. I do think he has some low level depression but it is mainly situational.
It has been this way off and on througout our R. Just before we got married his best friend died and that caused a HUGE downward spiral and there was no sex for about 5 or 6 months. Before that it was better but not as often as I would like. We saw the C then, made some headway and had a wonderful honeymoon. Came home, got pg - had some really fun pregnant sex - he loved that whole thing. Then came baby, bad business times and the current dry spell. I think we have ML about 2 or 3 times since baby came.
Karen as usual I could have written every word of all your posts (minus the baby part ). I think my bf could have written the "self-loathing" email, too. His life is in crisis at the moment, still being out of work, and a bunch of other stuff, but also when you look at the two previous important women in his life, namely, his mom and his ex-- both of them sang the song "You're not good enough and what you do isn't good enough." Even if he were a wealthy successful career person, chances are he'd still feel he wasn't good enough.
He's an acts of service guy, and I agree with you and HP that the book is no panacea, it did give me some helpful insights, like on Valentines Day when I came in and he was cooking dinner, and I felt uneasy that he was going to such a fuss and he really got his feelings hurt. Then I realized that his way of showing he cared was by DOING for me. I really appreciate that. Plus, since my thing is gifts, he's become a pretty good gift-buyer. :-)
Don't ever apologize for long posts... we love 'em around here...
Quote: I can't see: I can't see much past the pain and the anguish of my own feelings of worthlessness, embarrassment, uselessness, incompetency, stupidity, ineffectiveness, shame, humiliation, and disgrace. Its not that I don't want to see, I just feel overwhelmed by such feelings of self-loathing.
Did you tape record H and my conversation last night?
Its not my place to say, but be careful to have more family to patch things up. You may find yourself in the same/worse situation with more dependents than atm.
Hugs on your progress, and looking so HOT! (Remind him the bb's don't have to be fueled by pregnancy...there are other ways and they have a tendency to grow later in life anyhow..giggles)
Pity me that the heart is slow to learn
What the swift mind beholds at every turn.
Edna St. Vincent Millay
Thanks for the post - his bb comment was for my benefit. He likes them whatever their size. I am the one who wishes they were bigger - they match the rest of me. I still have a couple of pounds (5) to lose since the baby (my third) but I'm back in my size 4s. This is his first baby. I am more than aware that more children further complicates any issues that are outstanding. That is why we are seeing the C. H would love more children. The rest of the M is excellent, we are great partners and collaborators. IMHO I think the C is meeting with him alone to let him know that he had better get a hold of his issues because we cannot continue to run our M this way. He just seems stuck. Hopefully she can help.
). I think my bf could have written the "self-loathing" email, too. His life is in crisis at the moment, still being out of work, and a bunch of other stuff, but also when you look at the two previous important women in his life, namely, his mom and his ex-- both of them sang the song "You're not good enough and what you do isn't good enough." Even if he were a wealthy successful career person, chances are he'd still feel he wasn't good enough. 