Things have been going really well in the Honey House, but they backslid a little this weekend. H had a long weekend, as he took a little vacation at the end of last week. We had some fabulous days together, really just enjoyed our time as a family. I noticed that, as soon as the vac started, he completely backed off of the passionate side that he had been so diligently doing. I was puzzled but decided to act as if and enjoy our time together. After 3 days of this I was becoming restless. I was remembering Mrs Cemar's comment that it's so NICE to have a wonderful weekend in which you don't HAVE to have sex. I knew this was precisely how H was feeling.
We started off the weekend, both on the same page. High hopes for some good times together. As the weekend progressed, he became more comfortable and happy and relaxed with his family. This means that he 'relaxes' so much that he forgets to stay on top of the sex thing. The more he does this, the less connected I feel to him and within a couple of days I am backing off and distancing myself, disappointed.
Saturday night rolled around and when I got into bed he was not only not in the mood for sex, he was making sure that I was reading him loud and clear by refusing to allow my body to come into contact with his. I had had enough by then and called him on it. I have not done this in the past; I just roll my eyes and go to sleep. This time I said, "I know you don't want sex, I am reading you loud and clear. Now you can stop with the rigid body pose that will not allow me to get close." He denied it and I told him that he does this quite frequently and I was sick of it. I find it insulting and rude.
We then went on to talk about our sex life in general. I told him that I noticed he started backing off on the passion stuff and I was disappointed about it. I said that I got very resentful of getting my hopes up and then feeling like a fool afterwards. I then shifted the conversation to ask what was different about the nights when he was feeling passionate and those he wasn't. He replied, quite succintly, "I make an effort."
We talked a bit more but I was getting madder and madder so I ended the conversation. What is WITH this "hell hath no fury" thing? I detest that I get so angry when he doesn't want me and yet I cannot seem to rise above it. Call it a bad temper, call it fusion, call it whatever you want, but it is my own personal struggle.
The next day we ignored it until bedtime and, to my surprise, went on to have a calm and nice conversation. We actually talked about our sex life and all its disappointments (this was a Talk, not the time that I felt like talking about the hight points), without becoming accusatory or raising our voices. At some times, we were even holding hands. It was nice.
HP: I think all this might be a waste of my time. MrHP: In what way? HP: Well, it is a bit like trying to squeeze blood from a turnip. Here you have a man who does not have sexual thoughts and I am wanting you to show passion to me. If you do not have sexual thoughts about me, then WHERE is the passion supposed to originate from? MrHP: Well it's not like I don't have sexual thoughts about you. HP: How many sex thoughts do you have per day? Mr: Oh, I don't know...... HP: Zero? One? More than one? MrHP: A few. Not many. See, I don't have them in church, or at work, or EVER when the kids are around, and then when I hit the sheets I am overcome with sleep and so.....yeah, there's not room for many of them to enter my head. (enthusiasm building) But you know, when the kids are older.... HP: (cutting him off) You know, I don't really want to talk about the kids. They aren't going anywhere. This was a problem before we had kids and I don't really think they are at the root of things. I think they make things more difficult but not impossible. MrHP: Well I don't know at what time of the day I am supposed to think about you. HP: That's just IT, H! People with a high sex drive don't have to schedule in time to think about sex; it just happens. They can't STOP it from happening. So here I am with the unbloody turnip, squeezing it with all my might and wondering where all the blood is! I need to wake up!!
So we spoke a while longer, with H making a few choice turnip jokes, and did not really resolve anything. I kept pushing for resolution (what are we going to DO?) and him just making vague comments about the kids and whatnot. I pressed him on the schedule topic--as I had done three other nights this week. He finally said for me to make it up and let him know. I told him I did NOT want to do that and that the whole idea was repugnant to me to begin with but I was willing to try it in the hopes that we could find something that would work for us. I asked him again to tell me what his ideas were for a schedule. He wanted to know what the purpose of a schedule is, as he is not fond of the idea overall. I told him that it would take away a lot of the wondering and would give him not only the night that we would be ML but also the night in which he should be acting enthusiastic and happy about it--an opportunity for him to show desire. I went on to tell him that, after a few months, I would hopefully forget that I had to devise a schedule and 'train' him on how to fake desire for me. (this was one of my more negative moments, overall it was a positive discussion) He agreed that this would work better than him just "making an effort". Or not.
He finally said that his schedule would be Monday, Tuesday and Saturday. I HATE this schedule but I said nothing. I just felt glad that he was making a decision. He said we could talk about it more in depth later and figure out what days would be best. Fine, I said.
There were a few other moments in which I attacked him for not liking lingerie, ML in other places except the bedroom, etc etc. I said there were more things off limits than on. It feels restrictive to me and dull. In the 3 weeks we have been ML since the baby was born, we've done it exactly the same way, every single time. I love this position but am tired of it. It has been, what, 8 months since I have been properly made love to?! This position that he has been choosing is a rear entry one, one of our favorites and one we couldn't do while pg, but I'm tired of it already. The whole thing lasts maybe 5 minutes this way. There is not much foreplay (maybe a minute), very little kissing, no touching. It leaves me feeling empty. I know that he wants to both satisfy me and get it over with as soon as possible, as we are both tired from the baby. I get that and I am tired too, so it is not totally unacceptable to me. BUT, I need a night...once a month maybe..in which he makes love to my whole self, my whole body, and doesn't just go for the kill. I was hoping that his long weekend would be it.
Finally we ended the discussion (which really was a good one, but painfully honest) with me saying that our marriage feels unnatural to me, a lot of the time. I asked if he felt he had low testosterone; he replied he wasn't sure. He cited our fertility workups that we had 6 yrs ago as evidence that he did not have low T and I agreed. I said that I am struggling with a lot of gender identity things right now and hate that I am the 'man' of our bedroom. I know that Jenny struggled with this also. It seems unnatural to have to remind him to be sexual to me. It seems unnatural to hear him say that he does not have sexual thoughts. It goes against what my perceptions of a MAN are. (I didn't say that part) I said that the unnatural part comes in the way that he leaves me feeling undesirable and unattractive and I emasculate him, in return. This is SUCH a crappy setup! It is so easy to say, Well just stop doing that then, Honey...but the reality is that I feel undesirable to him because I often AM undesirable to him--meaning, he has no sexual desire for me on a given day.
I then went on to say that this knowledge does weird things to my brain. I start to have frequent and unrelenting escape fantasies. I imagine my life without him (which is, incidentally, not good--these fantasies never leave me feeling better overall but they do allieve some of the sexual bitterness) and I hate that. I told him that I worry that, after a lifetime of him having to force himself to be sexual with me, that I will fall out of love with him and want to move out. This is honestly one of my biggest fears. As I said this, I kept my voice calm and held his hand. I wanted him to know the seriousness of my words and how heartbroken I felt even uttering them, now. He replied that he understood but I am certain that he didn't. He simply cannot comprehend that I will ever stop loving him or that our marriage won't slide into the happy golden years. He thinks that I am trying scare him. I'm not. I'm telling him what will happen if things stay the way they are. I don't want to blindside him in ten more years when I look at him and say, I feel nothing for you.
The funny thing was (or, as the HD person, I thought it was funny..perhaps it will seem natural to the LD posters) the entire time we were having this loooong conversation he was trying to initiate sex. He kept touching me and caressing me. I felt nothing and asked him to stop. I had no inclination to have sex with him; my heart was nowhere near the process and still isn't. He kept saying, "I don't understand..I'm trying to have sex with you right now and you won't let me." He really believes that when I tell him how hopeless I feel that I am making a bid for sex! Or, rather, I think he wants all the 'bad' feelings to go away and that has been, historically, what makes that happen.
I finally told him goodnight and we went to sleep. Today, I feel better because we talked but the hopeless feeling is still there.
There is no blood in the turnip. I am wasting my time.
However!! I shall pursue the scheduled sex thing as a Custer's Last Stand and see what happens.
You know...I don't think we are in all that different of a position (no pun intended). I just recently realized my H has never been HD...and in fact has NEVER learned to really initiate any type of sexual activity.
Just last night I too pushed the "scheduled sex"...when I asked what nights he would prefer I got...."I don't know." So I said...nope, that won't work for me. Then I proceeded to pick a night that was good for me, and a night that I knew would be good for him. I hated that I had to do that, but if I didn't...I knew he wouldn't.
I've come to realize that what I've been asking my H to do is a lot like asking a blind man to walk around in a room he's unfamiliar with and expecting him not to trip....it ain't gonna happen unless I lead him.
You’ll never know how much I identify with you. My W and your H sound like peas in a pod.
Quote: I was remembering Mrs Cemar's comment that it's so NICE to have a wonderful weekend in which you don't HAVE to have sex. I knew this was precisely how H was feeling.
Yep. I took her to Jamaica for a week for our 25th anniversary. You know what I was thinking, right? Anniversary? Twenty-five years? Nice resort? Caribbean? No kids? As you might expect, her idea was a week away from the stress and pressure of everyday life – including the stress of HAVING to have sex.
Quote: …when I got into bed he was not only not in the mood for sex, he was making sure that I was reading him loud and clear by refusing to allow my body to come into contact with his.
Yep. Nothing to add to that.
Quote: what was different about the nights when he was feeling passionate and those he wasn't. He replied, quite succintly, "I make an effort."
W told me the exact same thing. I don’t understand why you would have to make an effort. I have the same reaction you do: I detest that I get so angry when she doesn't want me and yet I cannot seem to rise above it. I KNOW that it’s just the way it is, I suppress the anger and the hurt, but it’s there.
Quote: HP: How many sex thoughts do you have per day? Mr: Oh, I don't know...... HP: Zero? One? More than one? MrHP: A few. Not many.
Her answer: “almost never”. She doesn’t think about it, and doesn’t WANT to think about it – “Why would I want to think about it when you’re not here?”
On one level, the scheduled sex thing is working for us, but on another, it’s failing miserably.
Quote: It feels restrictive to me and dull. In the 3 weeks we have been ML since the baby was born, we've done it exactly the same way, every single time. I love this position but am tired of it. It has been, what, 8 months since I have been properly made love to?! This position that he has been choosing is a rear entry one, one of our favorites and one we couldn't do while pg, but I'm tired of it already. The whole thing lasts maybe 5 minutes this way. There is not much foreplay (maybe a minute), very little kissing, no touching. It leaves me feeling empty. I know that he wants to both satisfy me and get it over with as soon as possible
OK, this IS a little different. No baby, no rear entry, and way more than 8 months since it’s been done properly. But her focus when we ML is to get me off as quickly and efficiently as possible. It’s better than no sex at all, but as you’ve pointed out, it leaves me feeling empty. During the years of half-hearted HJ’s, I never thought that they would be preferable to ML, but now I’m not so sure. With the HJ’s she was at least involved.
Quote: It seems unnatural to have to remind him to be sexual to me. It seems unnatural to hear him say that he does not have sexual thoughts. It goes against what my perceptions of a MAN are.
You have to change genders on this one, but you have the idea down pat. I don’t expect women to be ready to drop their pants at the slightest hint of provocation, but I do think that a woman, or more specifically, a wife, should want her H. Sex should be something wonderful between them, not something that one has to constantly struggle to extract from the other. That sounds like pulling teeth doesn’t it?
Quote: I then went on to say that this knowledge does weird things to my brain. I start to have frequent and unrelenting escape fantasies. I imagine my life without him (which is, incidentally, not good--these fantasies never leave me feeling better overall but they do allieve some of the sexual bitterness) and I hate that. I told him that I worry that, after a lifetime of him having to force himself to be sexual with me, that I will fall out of love with him and want to move out. This is honestly one of my biggest fears.
Yes, yes, yes! I haven’t told her, but all the rest of that applies in spades. I even fantasized about W not surviving her surgery, remember? I have escape fantasies almost daily. I love my W and don’t ever want to leave her. But along the same lines you so eloquently wrote, I live in fear of losing that love. What happens after a lifetime of her having to force herself to be sexual with me? I can already see some of that. I do believe that age is playing a part in our current SL. I see life passing me by and I’ve redoubled my efforts to get our SL on track. I try really, really hard to keep it at bay, but I admit, I resent W for depriving me of a normal sexual R for the best years of my life. As we continue to grow older, I really fear that that resentment will take root and grow until it chokes out everything else.
NORMAL people fall in love, get married, and have sex – though not necessarily in that order. I fell in love, got married while I was still a teenager, and was celibate until I was in my thirties. Then I had a miserable, pathetic SL until my late forties. Now I’m making some strides, but I’m still left wondering if this is all there will ever be. Sure, W has gotten to a point where she’s willing to ML once a week, but willing isn’t the same as desirous. Being willing to “put forth the effort” to get my O isn’t the same as wanting to ML. I can’t help thinking that I shouldn’t have married W - I should have married some nice HDW and spent the last 30 years screwing ourselves silly. I guess that’s one reason I get so irritated at CeMar – he is always blaming his W and that forces me to look at the ugly side of me that blames my W for defrauding me out of a normal SL. I KNOW that isn’t true, but there’s a part of me that still clings to that thought.
This is way too long and leading nowhere. Just know that I understand your frustrations and that I AM praying for you by name (HP, not the real one).
I am very conscious about emasculating my husband. I admit that, at one point, I was so angry about our sex life that I took great pleasure in emasculating him with my words. I am so ashamed of that now and make a great effort to not do this. I have some pretty good failures, admittedly, but I really take this seriously. I have heard him say "less of a man" one too many times to not take it seriously.
So we are talking and I say to him:
H, I know that you would probably have it a lot easier with a typical woman. She would never want sex and you would feel normal, wanting it twice per week. I do feel badly that we don't have that type of relationship and that we both feel 'weird' with our gender reversal thing going on....
MrHP: I doubt it would be that different for me, in terms of my daily life. HP: What do you mean? MrHP: Look, you know what kind of guy I am. I would go along with whatever she wanted. If she never wanted sex, we'd never have it. HP: But eventually you'd start to feel mad, don't you think? (H is the type to put up with something for a very long time and then explode--with the expectation that it better never happen again..) MrHP: I don't think so. I'd probably adapt to whatever she wanted to do.
So then we went on to talk about his life with his imaginary wife a little more, but eventually dropped that topic as I felt myself getting worked up.
I'm thinking that his sex drive has really dropped, physically speaking. It used to be his spiritual matters messing with his head but I don't get that impression from him any longer. Not that he is "over" it, I don't believe he will ever be over it so to speak, but I don't think it is enough of a hindrance to be causing this sort of a body-brain shutdown.
Would it be crossing the line to make a doctors appt for him to get tested? I know he would freak but I also know that he will not take any action unless forced to do so.
On another note: I was reading a thread on another bb called "annoying domestic habits of your mate" and people were writing in what their spouse did that bugged them. I realized that my H does not do one single thing that bugs me, from a domestic standpoint. Such as drink milk out of the carton, pass gas in my direction, leave the seat up, throw his clothes in the floor, not 'see' the pile of dirty dishes, ETC ETC.
He is an outstanding mate. This is literally the only thing I can think of in which he does not wildly exceed all my marital expectations.
I am very very blessed. He is a perfect companion to me.
Unfortunately (for him), he married a girl who had a high sex drive her whole life and for whom neither time nor kids nor sleep deprivation (or wind or rain or dark of night, lol) has diminished it. It is the primary way I give and receive love. I adore the rest of his personality and am SO thankful for his domestic habits--which make my life easy--but there are times when I do not feel his love, plain and simple. And I sure as hell don't feel his desire.
I have a suggestion and a rhetorical question for you.
The suggestion is to double your schedule. The reasoning being to force to the surface, the underlying issues with your relationship.
The question; how do you think she would respond?
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Quote: The suggestion is to double your schedule. The reasoning being to force to the surface, the underlying issues with your relationship.
The question; how do you think she would respond?
I don’t know, but in all honesty, I don’t see her going for it.
First, I predict that the suggestion would make her angry. Once a week is way up from twice a year. She’s going along, but I know that she doesn’t really want to ML that often. I can almost hear her telling me that I’ll never be satisfied if I were to ask her to up the schedule to twice a week.
The second thing is just the schedule itself. I good HD fashion, I’m up for it any time, but W is definitely a morning sex person. We’ve been married for 29 years (next month), and in those 29 years, I’ll bet that we’ve had any kind of sexual encounter less than 25 times at night. Since we started ML on a regular basis some 5 months ago, it’s been once. W is a SAHM who may love me, but LOVES her sleep. I have to be at work at 0600, so I’m up and gone well before she drags herself and the kids out of bed.
Right now, we ML on Saturday mornings. We invariably end up staying up too late on Saturday and get up just in time to get everybody up, dressed, and fed and make it to church fashionably late. I would certainly commit to making it to bed a little earlier on Saturday if it meant ML on Sunday morning, but W would say, “WHAT!!! We just did it yesterday!” I know. I’ve tried.
I may try chewing around the edges of adding a mid-week night to the schedule just to see what reaction I get.
honeypot, You say that it only lasts 5 minutes and there is only 1 minute of foreplay. Could you do lots of foreplay on him to make it last as long as you like? Thats what I do. I don't know whether women do much foreplay generally (mine doesn't) but I can say that I would be delighted to find myself on the receiving end of some. On the subject of schedules. I can't help thinking that three times a week is a bit much for an LD to cope with all of a sudden. NOP suggests more but lets face it, the NOPs have a far more physical relationship than the majority of us ever will. I tried to up the frequency to twice a week but was met with a brick wall. That was a couple of months ago and since then I have noticed a definite softening, even some enthusiasm on a Friday night. She puts up no resistance at all even though for the last couple of weeks she has had a bad cough. I have a feeling she is beginning to quite like it and I am tempted to try an unplanned initiation tonight just to test the water. This Friday she is going out for a girls night out (all LDs as far as I can tell so it won't be raucous) so it will be interesting to see whether she is up for it or not when she gets home late and tired. All the best, SD
I usually do touch him but he is 'hurrying' things along anyway. Honestly, it is because we are both so tired..he is always focused on his sleep but not to this extent.
The schedule--well, we normally ML 3-4 times per week anyway. It's just that there is never any desire shown...it all ends up feeling like it was an accident. He acts like this: He does not want sex and does not have it in his mind. (this is not me assuming btw, this is what he tells me) Then I get in bed and hang all over him until he's hard. IF he feels it is not too late, then we ML.
I want it all. I know I sound utterly selfish, but I don't want accidental sex for the rest of my life. It has been like this for years, too, so it is not due to having a little baby, though that doesn't make it ANY easier as you can imagine.
I want passion and to be desired and noticed. I can no longer stand the feeling of being invisible to him until he hits the sheets--our bed is the physical reminder of what he is "supposed" to do. Then he starts dreading it. Or, rather, dreading the feeling of being expected to do something. So he lays there and either falls asleep or gets resentful until I come in (4 minutes later, lol) and snuggle up to him. At that point, he will either get aroused and think, What was I dreading? She's great! OR Dammit, I just want to sleep.
All this time there is never, not one iota, of outward sign that he is my lover. There is no fun, no delight taken in the fact that we are husband and wife. It is mostly dread until I turn the tide for him. IF I manage to do that.
I hear ya. My H shows actual desire about once a month, or month and a half. That seems to hold him till the next time. He has lately been more attentive towards me, doing things for me like changing the sheets on my bed, stuff like that. Also he has been giving me more hugs, nothing sensual, just a hug here and there. He is very happy. I am not exactly happy, lets just say I am content right now. Little by little things around my house are changing, he does more things with me, like going to the store or out to dinner here and there where before we did absoutely nothing together. I can be patient. I know I have to eventually call him on some things, but right now its ok.
Annette, I'm so happy for you! That sounds like a lot of progress and like he is really wanting to make an effort. Good for him.
I am the type of person that if I see my H making even the smallest of efforts, I am happy. I really thought that we were on to something and..poof..it was gone before I even had a chance to say, Goodbye Effort...LOL. It lasted about 10 days which was long enough for me to get used to it but not long enough for me to trust that it was permanent.
Sunday night when H was trying to initiate (while we were having the Talk) I told him, "Let's face it. This (meaning him trying to get something started) would not be happening if I hadn't gotten mad. The entire long weekend would have come and gone and you would not have felt so much as a twitch of desire to be with me. It is all motivated by my potential anger and not out of actually wanting to ML to me."
He said I was probably right. I pointed out that the short-lived show of passion was the same way..he figured he'd better do something but as soon as I relaxed and got totally happy about it, and complimented him (which is SUPPOSED to do the opposite and encourage him to do more--Michele, what am I doing wrong with this man o mine?) he dropped the ball entirely. I think he looks at our marriage as a series of events, rather than an ongoing project. He thinks of it in terms of "completion" and then moving on to the next thing.
Quite simply, he has not decided to make a change.
Last night's update: I made a decision to be a nice person to him and not let resentment rule my life. Well, actually, what I did was fake it. I still felt resentful and pissy on the inside but I was nice on the outside. He even said, You're being so nice tonight, what's up?? (he had already made up his mind that I would be mad for a while, which is unfortunately typical for me) I replied, "I'm making an effort." So I was nice to him but not warm. All of my motivation for being warm has been sucked right outta me. I don't WANT to get close to him right now. He is a nice person and a great person to live with and, for now, I am content with that.
If only these escape fantasies would stop, I'd be having a nice day!
I am getting out of this house, though. That always seems to help my mood tremendously. It is hard to stay in the very same area in which I am repeatedly rejected, day in and day out. I am constantly reminded of him and all the ways in which he does not want me. It's depressing! So I'm getting the heck out of dodge and doing something fun.
