I want to stick up for CeMar. (Ewwwww...I sure hope nobody puts a sexual meaning to that.)
CeDude, I have felt the same things as you at many of the same times as you've posted! On those occasions the only difference in us has been that you would say, "the sky is falling" and I would go for some stupid sexual joke. So, I guess I'm more a light-hearted depressive than you.
I'm not trying to dump on you. Actually, I was trying to give you some hope. The fact that you recognize that you could get more sex by just asking for it tells me that there is hope. Your W would "just say NO" if there wasn't. At that point, you could decide whether staying for your kids was really in their best interest or not. (I decided that it wasn't for mine, btw.)
I hope you don't let past hurts ruin the rest of your life. It really is your choice alone. IOW, you're only trapped if you let yourself be. Your W doesn't have that kind of power over you.
You seem like a smart guy to me. I believe you can find a way to make your M better, at least. If not, God doesn't expect you to stay in an impossible situation (and neither would your kids).
I have stuck up for CeMar, too, as I have always found in his posts -- and those of barney, Wildebube and Hairdog, and some others -- so much of my own pain, and my own situation.
And I, too, have been told to just "grow some" and go have "the Talk" with the wife and press on (even though I've had "The Talk" probably 12 times in the past 17 years, to no avail).
I think CeMar is just painfully straightforward and blunt, and he comes across perhaps as Neanderthal and selfish sometimes, when all he is being is honest and perhaps not as articulate as some of the others on this Board.
But I am still of the belief that there is more truth in ONE CHAPTER of Dr. Laura's book than there is in all of TSSM or PM, but it's somehow SO simple that people (mostly, women) dismiss it as, well, simplistic. I base this opinion on the testimonials of WOMEN to Dr. Laura's book, not on some male "gosh, I-wish-it-were-so-simple" belief of my own, by the way.
I've inhaled every post on here for nearly a year now, and I still really only see one of two types of so-called "successes":
1) where the TSSM and PM approaches do nothing other than help the LD person "hold onto themselves" in the face of tremendous pain and endless battles and conversations. In other words, the quantity AND quality of the sex rarely improves, but there are good skills shared (and a support group here) for learning how to DEAL with it; and
2) Some REAL successes only when BOTH SPOUSES admit there is a problem, and agree to deal with it (the NOPs, for instance).
Perhaps there are those personality types who are willing to fight, and battle, and argue, and plead, and beg, and cajole, and push on, over and over and over again, to see SOME little progress, but the simple truth is that there are others who have personality types who LOATHE that sort of conflict, and who just don't think it ought to be that danmed difficult for two people who once were madly, passionately in love with each other, to get back to that place.
There are some of us who don't consider it "cowardly" to refuse to continue to fight about our spouse's lack of effort at the relationship, lack of intimacy and affection, and duty sex out of some combination of obligation or fear that they'll lose us and the security we provide.
Call me a crazy dreamer, but I'm with CeMar -- as awful as it comes across sometimes.
btw, it's also been very enlightening for me to spend some time recently on some of the OTHER DB message boards, and not just on this one. It's funny how there are actually examples of LD "epiphanies" on some of the other boards, but this community seems to have self-selected into those couples who are continuing to have to battle at it.
Don't get me wrong, I ADMIRE THE SPIRIT OF A WARRIOR, but I just don't think that marriage ought to be a war.
Quote: But I am still of the belief that there is more truth in ONE CHAPTER of Dr. Laura's book than there is in all of TSSM or PM, but it's somehow SO simple that people (mostly, women) dismiss it as, well, simplistic. I base this opinion on the testimonials of WOMEN to Dr. Laura's book, not on some male "gosh, I-wish-it-were-so-simple" belief of my own, by the way.
I've read that book. There are good points in it, and I have to say I'd love it... proclaim its gospel, too, were I a man. It takes the entire responsibility of the health and well-being of the marriage and places it directly on the shoulders of the woman. What man wouldn't love it?
If my H were as stupid and Neanderthal as Dr. Laura makes them out to be, I could see it being pretty good advice. But truly, I think Dr. Laura has some kind of Freudian thing going on...
Sorry. I'm my H's wife, not his mother. If I want to manipulate him to helll and back, I'll take her advice. But I really don't have the time nor the inclination to play that game.
Her basic premise is that men are simple creatures, and they all (I would say most, but she probably implies all) want is to be made to feel important, and great sex.
I would also reverse her message to allow for LDHs and HDWs, but I still think that many American women are "married" to their kids, and DON'T make their husbands the priority that they should be.
That's just my opinion, and you can disagree with it, but it's also her position THE WAY IT IS HASN'T MADE WOMEN HAPPY, not just MEN.
And, when her advice is followed, she's getting phone calls and e-mails and letters from hundreds and hundreds of men and women that their marriages are happier.
She may be old-fashioned, but I also think the current way isn't working very well -- for either sex.
Choc, I agree with you. There is nothing cowardly about refusing to battle it out with your mate over sex.
There is, however, something cowardly about coming here to spew out all kinds of awful things about your mate while at the same time being unable to say those things to them.
Cemar is carrying on a battle with his wife on the pretend pages of this bulletin board.
If his choice is to really accept it, then I would imagine it would make him a lot happier to stop throwing out statistics on how hopeless his marriage is.
In other words, poop or get off the pot.
OR, start a thread that says "I have no intention of ever doing anything about my situation but I need a place to vent so that I don't take it out on my wife." I could actually respect that.
I could be wrong, but where has he ever said he hasn't discussed it (even repeatedly) with his wife?
I think sometimes if you don't post the drama-style convos in detail on here, some posters are assuming that some of us have never done "The Talk" (even repeatedly), or shared the utter depth of our feelings, sadness and anger with our spouses.
But I will agree with you, if CeMar is NOT having these discussions with his wife, then he has no business gritching about 'em here.
I also think that the "spewing awful things about your mate" needs to be taken with a grain of salt, as I think many people come here only after they're utterly despondent and yes, even outright ANGRY, with their spouses. At least I take it that way.
CE said: There are some of us who don't consider it "cowardly" to refuse to continue to fight about our spouse's lack of effort at the relationship, lack of intimacy and affection, and duty sex out of some combination of obligation or fear that they'll lose us and the security we provide. ------------
Just for the record, what I said was: "Waiting for your W is cowardly and, frankly, doesn't work."
I see a big difference in the two. If CeMar has done everything possible to work his SSM out, then refusing to fight about it any longer is the next logical step to take, whether he stays in his M or not. But, HE said that he knew he could have more sex if he was willing to ask for it. I'm simply encouraging him to ask for it and work from there.
I'm at the same place, finding that it provides me with the satisfaction that, at the very least, I'm doing what I can to make things better. I'm hoping that it makes lasting improvements.
I was wrong for making a general "cowardly" statement. I should better have stated that I realized that it was cowardly in my sitch and the "integrity" I claimed (in putting up with things for the sake of my kids) was just refusing to be a man and fix it. My apologies to all those offended. However, I think even CeMar would agree that what we both were/are doing doesn't work.
Quote: Her basic premise is that men are simple creatures, and they all (I would say most, but she probably implies all) want is to be made to feel important, and great sex.
I hear you, buddy. My point to you is, who the hell doesn't want to be made to feel important, and have great sex? (And btw, it does go in that order).
And in the rest of your post, although I do not disagree with some of what you have said, you have, again, exonerated yourself of any and all responsibility. "If the WOMAN would just DO WHAT A WOMAN IS SUPPOSED TO DO, ACCORDING TO MY STANDARDS, we wouldn't be having this problem!!"
And that, my friend, is the problem. You can disagree with me if you want to, but that's how I see it.
Quote: And in the rest of your post, although I do not disagree with some of what you have said, you have, again, exonerated yourself of any and all responsibility. "If the WOMAN would just DO WHAT A WOMAN IS SUPPOSED TO DO, ACCORDING TO MY STANDARDS, we wouldn't be having this problem!!"
Corri, I'm sorry, we must be reading two different posts. Where did I say that? I don't feel that way at all, much less can be quoted that way.
I think I understand the distinction you're making, but I'm trying to suggest to the Board that there can be other reasons besides being "cowardly" for not wanting to initiate anymore, or have "The Talk" for the 537th time with the spouse.
"Grab your 'nads" I think is the proper advice for someone who's NEVER confronted their spouse about this, or anyone that doesn't feel like their spouse took them seriously or in any way doubted the seriousness of the marriage situation. But if you've HAD The Talk, multiple times, cried together, prayed together, poured out your feelings in long conversations and e-mails about the depth of your sadness, anger and despair -- and then, NUTHIN', then there is simply a "I don't get a F anymore" that I think takes over.
Defeatism, yes. Cowardice, no.
I face tons of conflicts in my job every day, and even other conflicts with my wife in other areas of our life. I honestly really don't care if I offend anyone in these areas. I'm just at more of a "It offends me that I should have to continue to insist on this" stage that I am at, I guess.
