Looking backward...but only to move forward

[sage]

Had a few minutes so I went thru thread #8:

Sage's 8th thread

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A good reminder to me that it still does take “mindfulness” work:

Things just feel different for me right now -- in a very good way. It's hard to explain but I just feel so much calmer, so much stronger. I can feel his presence, his relating to me in a way that makes me feel very good.

It's not rose colored glasses, either...(I probably don't have to tell you guys that! You all know I'm the master of "all this good stuff is happening BUT...). there were a couple of times last night when I could feel myself mentally lapsing into old habits (making ASSumptions, feeling impatient, having EXPECTATIONS) but I was able to see it...and work through it.

And, I can HEAR h sharing his thoughts and feelings and love with me. What scares me a bit is how hard I have to listen to hear it ... NOT because he's not saying it clearly but because of the the cobwebs and noise in my brain (the ASSumptions, expecations, rampant thoughts, etc.). I'm working, working, working on brushing those aside.

WOW! This sounds positive:

I'm still scared...that I'm going to get hurt...that I'm going to take him for granted again...that my anger will return, his distance, too...that fidelity will be an issue again...but, I don't know, I feel like I have the tools to get through that...to keep us strong and positive and moving forward. It's almost like I feel like I can keep an eye on the small stuff and fix that with DB'ing instead of waiting for the big stuff to become an issue....

“Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus” is one of those books I think I’ll listen to again and again…

One of the books that I've read in this quest and really learned a lot from is "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus". I'm REALLY not a huge fan of the sweeping gender generalization but I have to say that this book gave me some tremendous insights into the things that I have done DRAMATICALLY wrong in relating to my h over the years. I recently re-listened to the audio version and wrote down some of the more salient points. I'm posting them here as a reminder to myself. Perhaps they'll have some benefit to others, too.
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* Stop giving unsolicited advice to h. Give love instead and you will show trust that he can solve his own issues.

* Don't try to change his behavior.

* h's disinterest in books or c or outside help isn's a lack of caring -- it's a byproduct of feeling as though he can and should solve his own problems.

* Approach HIM as the source of a solution.

* h needs to feel needed to feel motivated. he needs to feel appreciated too otherwise he becomes passive and loses energy to help.

* h needs to know that he can make me happy. (This doesn't mean that h is the source of my happiness...more that he knows that I know that he is ABLE to make me happy)

* h will be motivated by the possibility of making a difference.

* love is a motivator.

* when he feels as though he cannot succeed he becomes withdrawn.

* h wants to be needed.

* h wants to be appreciated, trusted and accepted.

* Setting boundaries and aksing for what I need is difficult because I feel unworthy of support and love. Then, I push him away and he feels untrusted and unaccepted.

* It's not my needs that turn him off it's my desperation and hopelessness -- they tell him that I don't trust him.

* I need to realize that I truly deserve to be loved.

* A "man's" deepest fear -- that he's not good enough or is incompetant

* h may appear most uncaring when he is afraid

* I misinterpret his silence as him wanting him to leave me..

* Never (!!!) follow him into his cave

* Don't make him feel wrong for being in his cave

* Trust him to handle things -- only offer help if he directly asks for it.

* I can directly ask for support without any criticism or judgement.

* A "man" may feel smothered when a "woman" comforts him or tries to solve his problems

* A "man" may feel attacked and blamed when a "woman" is emotional or is talking about her problems. A way to mitigate that is to frequently appreciate the fact that he is listening.

* A "man" may be like a rubberband in terms of intimacy -- he needs to pull away to fully feel the need for love

* Don't insist on continuous intimacy. Let him pull away. He'll be back.

* h needs to feel accepted just the way he is

* It's bad to chase him when he is pulling away. It's also bad to make him feel badly about pulling away.

* When he comes back from having "been" away, don't punish him or reject him physically.

* Being indirect when sharing feelings with h. can seem judgemental and invalidating

* It feels attacking and disapproving.

* Stop asking questions twice!!!!

* You can disagree with his behavior but still approve of who HE IS

* Find loving intention and goodness in his behavior.

* "men" stop giving when they feel taken for granted

* appreciating the little things heals

* A "man" stops givng when he feels as though he's given a lot -- he sits back to receive

* "Men" give when they are asked if they feel as though the scales are balanced

* Be direct in asking for what you need.

* "men" give penalty points when feeling unloved or unaccepted. They primarily want appreciation.

* I need to prioritize loving attitudes and feelings

* Not making a big deal out of his mistakes scores a lot of points.

* My negative feelings make him feel unloved

* Practice asking correctly for what I'm already getting -- use "would" not "can", be direct and concise, non-demanding, correct timing

* Ask for things that you don't think you'll get and then accept the "no" graciously.

* Remain silent after asking for support and give him time to respond.

Some thoughts on what it means to NOT be the couple who engages in R talks..:

anyway...and we don't have sit down, pointed conversations aobut our r. I think that we're evolving towards being able to talk about the r. stuff but I doubt we'll ever be the kind of couple that plans r talk time or even overtly acknowledges that we're talking about an R issue.

What HAS made the difference is that I finally realized that the way that h was showing his recommitment was through actions and also through words (but not the ones that I was necessarily waiting to hear). Once I realized that over and over again, it was easier for me to show appreciation and confidence to him and it just perpetuates the cycle.

How did I see that h was TELLING me that he was HERE with me?

* Going out of my way to notice and journal three positives every day and thanking him for at least one of them (if not all)

* Learning a lot about communication style differences

* Reading "5 love languages" so I could see how he might be showing his love differently than I expect

* Really quieting my mind so that I can HEAR what he's saying to me

* Re-reading my threads when I got stuck (those "3 positives" really stuck out)

* getting whacked by a 2x4 or two by my pals here to see all the good stuff around me!

* recognizing and acknowledging that h doesn't have to communicate the way that I do. Releasing him and myself from that boundary has made all the difference (note that this is not STATED to h. I just remind myself to appreciate his style)

Thoughts I posted on what “women” might need (from M&V):

1. "women" are like waves (remember that "men" are like rubber bands!) when it comes to intimacy. (What this means to the engineer in me is that men tend to be "on" or "off", i.e., discrete, when it comes to intimacy and then women are more continuous -- yah, their intimate feelings ebb and flow but in a more fluid fashion)

2. The "wave" theory is why "women" need routine reassurance from their spouse that they are loved, important, etc.

3. "woman" share problems and offer assistance as a way of building relationships. When a "woman" wants to talk about her feelings, she's building intimacy -- unfortunately, hearing about a "woman's" feelings can feel like an attack to a man (even though she's just sharing, she's NOT blaming him)

3. "woman" want to be listened to, they resent it when men jump quickly to try to solve their problems.

4. "women" give points at the same rate for both big things and little things (whereas men tend to give big points for the big things and little points for the little things). Therefore, a man should focus on the little things in order to quickly accumulate points.

5. A woman will keep "giving" even though she feels as though she's given more than her spouse (this is apparently counter to what men do) so men ASSume that things are AOK if a woman is still giving.

6. If a "woman" feels as though she's REALLY been giving more than her spouse, she will SUBTRACT her points from his. This one's sort of funny but I also think it can be very true. In other words...if I think I'm doing twice as much around the house as my husband is doing, I will SUPPOSEDLY subtract my 20 points from his 10 points leaving him with minus 10 points! (And, in a very sorry state indeed!). A "woman" will give points back generously, though, when she feels as though the balance is evened up again.

7. If a "woman" doesn't feel as though her feelings were "heard" she'll keep coming back to the same complaint again and again and again...

Oh, yah…one of the reasons I get stuck!:

So...it occurred to me this AM why I think I've been feeling "the fear".... (well, in part).

I think it's because I was looking for specific reassurances from h that we are "ok now"....I was also looking for CREDIT (this is an all too common theme for me! ) Credit for sticking it out, for working hard on myself, for being patient and .... you know...some "I'm so grateful that you ..." thingy.

I'm pretty sure this would fall under Soup's "self-cherishing" category, no?

So...I did a couple of things...I LISTENED to what h WAS saying (good stuff!)...and I gave myself credit...and I basked in the support I find here amongst friends. Probably still a bit "self-cherishing". I'll work on that...

What works? Some things:

1. Remembering my goals of patience, quiet, calm, peace -- in myself and in my m.

2. Hearing h. -- really hearing him

3. Remembering that I DO NOT have a monopoly on the "right way to love" -- in other words, h is showing me his love all the time in his own ways...wonderful ways...when I can SEE it and HEAR it ('cause I tune into it!), I can FEEL it. When I'm LOOKING for MY WAY, I miss the good stuff.

Hmmm…wish I had read this a couple of weeks ago!!!:

realized why I'm feeling stuck today. H isn't feeling well. I rarely feel as though I'm comforting or "good" at figuring out the right thing to do. One of the emails that I saw from the ow to h. referred to her "wanting to take care of him while he was sick" so today I got mired in "what would the ow do", "she was so much more SOMETHING than me" etc.

Welcome to my cheeseless tunnel.

2 things came to mind...

hey, why not ask? so I called h. and asked. Told him I was sometimes confused on how to be helpful. He said he didn't know either...but that my asking the question was a sign of my support.

Also, how would I treat a sick friend?

Oh, I guess one more thing...his withdrawal, quieting down, etc when he's not feeling well is NOT ABOUT ME. I need to stop ASSumping and having EXPECTATION.

Aha…a reminder…things REALLY are different than they were pre-bomb!

As for "being happy" and what it means...

In MY sitch, my not being happy was about a couple of different things...in the background was the feeling that I've "always" had that my h was going to cheat on me and leave me....this has all kinds of tentacles back into my childhood and my own crappy thought process, etc, etc, but I think that my attitude towards my marriage was clouded by this overwhelming feeling that I was doomed to start (or, that we were).

The second aspect was more in the foreground....fact is, I was angry A LOT of the time...well, angry and worried. This had a few different elements to it...one was the feeling that h wasn't pulling his weight in the r, wasn't grown up enough, wasn't doing things the way that I wanted them done...therefore, whatever he was doing didn't count. The second was this worry aspect -- I did a pretty lousy job of not freaking out over just about everything...money, the future, the past, whatever.

So how did I solve these elements conspiring to make me miserable? Well, the background/childhood stuff I've been working on in C. The worrying about little things I've attacked in a bunch of different ways...meditation, mindfulness, present moment stuff...also, not to be glib but many of my "day to day issues" became trivial when I found out that h was having an affair and wanted a divorce! And, as for my expectations re. h, well, DB'ing has really helped me shut up, drop the rope, look at the positives...what I realized fairly quickly was that my h HAD BEEN doing things but I hadn't been paying attention to them...and, the more critical I got, the less he did...no kidding.

I also have to say that the Mars/Venus book was a true eye opener in that regard...how I'd been doing a cruddy job of appreciating h and his gifts.

It DOES tie into the LL stuff...I'd been looking for things in MY LL and missing all the stuff that he was doing!

I guess, in closing, the biggest change I've tried to make is to accept the fact that my h. is not under my control...that dropping expectations and ASSumptions, dropping the notion of SHOULD when it comes to him (he should be doing this, etc) that combined with appreciation and gratitude for his presence in my life...well, that's been a winning combo.

Some thoughts on forgiveness:

I made the decision early on to forgive my husband but it hasn't been a black and white process...I find that forgiving him (and frankly, myself) has been an ongoing thing...I'll strip away layers of resentment and anger and plateau and coast for a while...and then something will happen that will result in an unforgiving thought popping up in my head and I'll realize that I still have a ways to go....

does that make sense?

It IS funny that this should come up now because JUST this morning I realized that I am able to view h. as a wonderful man who did a not wonderful thing. This actually felt like a big thing to me.

As for what h knows or doesn't...I have told him a couple of times that I did not think that the a. was unforgivable...that I thought our m. could survive it. I don't know if I've actually said "I've forgiven you".

My h and I don't actually talk much about our R. The few R talks we've had since the bomb have been poorly timed and have actually caused some backsliding. I think we're still very much in the "strengthening" phase...eventually I think (and hope) that we'll figure out positive ways to talk about stuff but I don't think we'll ever be big talkers as far as the r. goes.

This is how I suggested someone work their way up to asking their h for “a date”:

Kitti -- well..."date night" is not uncommon for us anymore so I'm not sure I'd recommend the approach that I used for your "first request" to your h. In other words (yes, sage, please restate that ultra-confusing statment!) -- I just said "Is it too soon for me to ask you out on a date for Thursday night? Or would you rather see how you feel about school first?"

My suggestions for you would be much more subtle...

I would start with bringing the date HOME -- rent a video that you think you'd both like...say something like "I was going to watch video XYZ, would you like to watch it with me?". If he says "yes" -- very cool. If he says "no" -- and this is VERY important -- WATCH IT BY YOURSELF.

You could also buy something special for dinner one night (don't go crazy...just something out of the ordinary -- a nicer pasta, takeout from a restaurant, whatever) and say "I was having a craving for XYZ." Then it's kind of like a date he doesn't even know he's on!

Tell him "I'm going for a walk ...would you like to come with me?" -- same idea as the video -- go anyway no matter what he says.

Then....when you've got a video or two under your belt....ask him out to the movies or dinner... something like "I was interested in seeing movie XYZ -- would you like to go with me?" -- if he says yes, you'll need a babysitter, right? If he says NO -- make arrangements to go by yourself or with a friend.

Something that has worked for me when h gets stressed or peeved:

Well...h was so irked and annoyed but about stuff that had nothing to do with anything I had done. also, he was SO much more irked (IMHO) than the sitch called for. Those two thing made it VERY easy for me to not personalize his anger and not REACT. I listened to his mini-rant, validated a bit, offered a solution or two (including MY going and doing something) and then (realizing that he may not want a solution) said something like "yikes, are you interested in hearing about my ideas or would you rather just talk?"

I had just finished revisiting some old emails and ended up bummed:

My intention today was to start a new thread...for the last few days I've realized that I'm still clinging to fear over the future...fears that h will leave me...that I am not enough for him. I realized last night that this type of mindset was a contributing factor to the issues in our M. Yah, it stinks to be "working without a net" but that's the way life is! I need to stop beating myself up for my perceived failures as a wife...I need to stop questioning (only in my head, of course) the "realness" of what's going on...I need to remind myself to appreciate each moment I have today and not get mired in past (ahem) or future.

I hadn't really expected to be feeling so sad right now...I guess that's what a trip down memory lane will do for you. So...not only is an attitude adjustment in order...but it's probably even MORE warranted given the timing.

Sage