I lost it this weekend, folks. Whatever tenuous hold I had on my sanity was thrown out the window.
I woke up Saturday morning in a bad mood. Just very angry and hostile towards my husband. I knew I was blindsiding him but could NOT stop myself from spewing out venom at him. The more he tried to placate me, the worse I got.
What started it was that I went to my first Weight Watchers meeting on Sat morning. I could NOT shake this "what's the use?" feeling the entire morning. While my H prefers me thin, it doesn't rev up his libido. I want to be healthy for my own sake but, I'm telling you, it completely sucks the motivation out of it for me to know that there will be no 'cheerleader' for me..no one to really give a crap about this accomplishment. Just someone who is curiously immune to me.
So I began picking on him about not caring whether I lost the baby fat or not. He let me know that he DID care and wanted me to be thin but that his "love does not fluctuate depending on what you look like". I felt like shouting at him, We're not talking about LOVE you idiot, we're talking about lust! but I didn't. I just didn't have the energy and, quite frankly, I get tired of having to redirect the conversation to what we both know we're REALLY talking about. MrsNOP is correct when she talks about the Euphemism Highway...but there is another road, an outer road, that the LD partner travels on called the Avoidance Road. Avoid sex talks at ALL costs, no matter the pain and destruction that is happening to the M. So here was H and I, both traveling to the same place (Craptown) but on different yet parellel roads.
For most of the day I kept trying to steer the conversation to where I really wanted it to go but I lacked the energy and balls to drive that train. For his part, he kept trying to turn it into a convo about physical fitness and how I am already skinnier than most women in our area. (I kept saying in response to this: "It's not that I think I look awful, it's that I am disgusted at the thought of getting back into shape and you not being enthusiastic about it.")
Nothing got resolved and the day ended.
Now, all this time......the real issue was lingering about in my brain. It had nothing to do with WW but for some reason I just couldn't spit it out to him. Sunday morning I woke up with a renewed sense of wanting to speak my mind, no matter what kind of lunatic he thought I was.
So I spoke up bright and early with this line to him: "H, I am very afraid to go back to our old relationship. You know the one..where we argued about sex all the time." MrHP: Then let's not go back to it. HP: Ha. It's not that easy. After all, what has really changed except that we now have MORE stress and distraction(another baby) in the house? MrHP: Well the easiest way would be for you to just not get mad about it. I mean, so we have sex twice per week instead of four times per week. What's really so wrong with that? HP: It's not the frequency that makes me upset. MrHP: Yes it is! HP: No it isn't. It is the fact that I always feel like you have to be talked into it; I never get the feeling that you want me. And, H, I need that feeling. MrHP: See, this is what makes me mad. You always tell me what's in my own head. I DO want you! Don't tell me what I'm thinking.. HP: I'm not telling you what you're thinking. I'm telling you what conclusions I've come to based on your actions and words--if I never see or hear about any desire, then how am I supposed to believe it exists? MrHP: But you just had a baby--what do you expect me to be doing? HP: I thought that it would be hard for you. I thought that I would finally get to see some horniness from you. I figured you'd be asking me how much longer, etc. H, I know it is so unfair of me to get these expectations in my head of how you will be..then get upset when that doesn't happen and blindside you with my anger. I really am sorry that I do that. At the same time, I am undeniably pissed. MrHP: What, exactly, are you talking about? Feeling you up all the time? Being crude? HP: No! I want you to be you but just to let me see this desire that is supposedly inside you, once in a while. MrHP: (confused) HOW do I do that? HP: Well, you could say it with words if you don't feel comfortable acting it out. MrHP: Look, you need to understand something--I am not like this. I never will be and you need to accept that. I am NOT that kind of guy.
That effectively ended the conversation.
Later on, we were on our way to a family outing and the following words burst out of me: "That SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I say that I want a man who is capable of showing his desire, you say you will not be that man, and that's the end of it. I lose, you win. I have to stay married to you and "accept" the way things are and you don't have to stretch yourself at all. That SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" He said, Well I guess I can try to be different.
That bought him about 3 minutes of peace. Then I told him that the reason I was continuing to be upset is that there is no resolution with this. I said I was afraid to go back to the old R and here we are..acting out the old patterns. Nothing has changed!, I said. He agreed. I asked what his plan of action is in regards to his 'change'. He had none and didn't know where to start. I looked out the window and said silent prayers to God that I would be able to be faithful to this man--something I am still doing this morning. I glanced over at H and see him mouthing "desire...desire..." while he's driving and looking perplexed. I started laughing cause, while this man totally p*sses me off, he is not a diabolical person who is trying to make me miserable. He truly cannot fathom showing desire. He doesn't think he's capable of it and really desperately wants that to be the end of that.
We talked some more, but not really getting anywhere. At one point he said, Look it is a beautiful day. The sun is shining, it's warm outside, we have 3 gorgeous daughters, a nice house, a GOOD LIFE. What is the problem here?? WHY are you so miserable over the one tiny little thing that doesn't go your way? Can't you just look past this and be happy anyway?
Folks, at that moment, I wanted so badly to say YES. Yes, I can do that. I see his point completely. I have a good life--a great life, even--and H is the best person I have ever personally known. I want this to be enough simply because I love him. So my mind was in a terrible fight with my heart as I was wanting it to be enough, all the while knowing it wasn't. Right or wrong, it isn't enough. I want it all and I want it with him. I realize that, in the meantime, I am driving him away from me but I don't know what else to do.
Then in a classic fused moment I told him that it wasn't just me...that most women would react the same way I do--in the event that their partner showed no desire for them, but would have sex with them if asked, they would be lost. Women like to be pursued and desired. (I know that is an overgeneralization but I was on a roll) I told him that many times I felt like the 'man' of the relationship. He wants me to tell him when it's time to have sex, where to eat dinner, what day to take the car in for new brakes, ETC. I don't want that role and I'm no good at it anyway. At another point in the weekend, I flew off the handle at him because I was talking to him and D2 would scream every time I opened my mouth. She was standing right next to him. He did nothing. I spewed out a bunch of stuff about him not being a man and allowing her to treat me that way..it was despicable, blah blah. I really was horrible, I'm telling you. He does NOT make our children treat me with respect. OTOH, I am very firm with them that they respect their Dad and would never tolerate them doing that...screaming every time he opened his mouth so that they can monopolize the scene. I realize that I wasn't teaching them to respect him this weekend, with the way I was treating him either.
Finally, I apologized to him for ruining our weekend together and for my atrocious behavior. I told him that it might be due to hormones, who knows, it is a bit hard to see that storm when you are in the midst of it. He said, Oh I'm sure it's hormones but I also know that you meant every word of what you said. I agreed and said, yeah but it is the hormones that encourages it to all come OUT instead of staying where it needs to until I can say it in a nice way. So last night we went to bed. I was unsure what he would do but it turned out to be nothing. Then in the middle of the night, I snuggled up to him and he took my hand and placed it on his very hard member. I did nothing. Wtf is up with that? WHAT is that supposed to be? Is that desire for me, or what? I really don't want our first time post-baby to be a middle of the night jobber with no kissing, no foreplay, just rush-rush cause he has to leave for work in an hour...etc. I still am confused with that.
Why can't my own husband show me the desire that is in his heart? I don't get it!
At one point, he was telling me how much he loved me and he said "and not friendship love either." I asked what kind of love he was talking about and he replied, "I love you as my LOVER." In a very firm tone.
So if I am to believe him that it exists, but also believe him that he will not ever show it to me, where does that leave me?
I'll tell you where--in a boring and unfulfilling R. That type of setup is not sexy or alluring to me in any way.
At one time I would have been very Pollyanna-ish at this moment and thought, If it exists then there is a possibility that I will see it again someday!! But no more. If the best predictor of someone's future behavior is their past behavior, then I'm doomed. Even when I told him that I was going to leave, his Show of Desire was very short lived. He is a stubborn person and I fear that this is something I will have to learn to live with if I am to remain in this marriage.
Which leaves me with this:
Why can't I stop thinking about being with someone else this morning? It is driving me crazy. I don't want to be the person that I am being, at this moment. I want to be better than that, and yet I'm not.
Oh (((((HP)))) I soooo know where you are coming from.
I'm often perplexed why my LDH just can't seem to do a simple thing like tell me he "wants" me, you know show some desire of some sort. Although, he's beginning to do a little better (because he's really forcing himself)...he's beginning to become just a tad bit more physical...but talking about wanting me, or telling me that he's thought about me in a sexual fashion during the day...that still doesn't happen (until after I bring it up).
I don't know if it's any consolation knowing you aren't alone right now (probalby not)...but I'm sending you hugs and all of the best thoughts I can right now.
Hey I know!!!! Let's do the "Wife Swap" thingie....it seems to be working for the wives/husbands on the show....maybe if we did this our LDH's would see....we aren't the only women in the world who want to feel desired
HP: I see you were riding the emotional/relationship roller coaster this weekend, as was I. Sometimes things are so good, yet, you get to thinking, "how much better this would be if our sex life were more fulfilling." And then they accuse you of wanting "it all." And yes, you do want it all, and dang it, you deserve it all. Because the "it all" you want is basically, the Minimum Daily Requirement for a happy relationship.
I remember this woman I dated between X and W...she loved it when I would come up behind her while she was working in the kitchen...she'd usually start grinding back at me. My W just ignores me when I come up behind her...and if I'm the least bit excited, she just pulls away. What is wrong with these people?
HP, ouch, what a crummy weekend. I think I am starting to learn that I have to look for my W's desire. She doesn't make it obvious, but she's been making a concerted effort to initiate occasionally. I'm starting to recognize little things she does, and trying to accept that as some spark. I have to wonder if we are not being greedy looking for the hammer over the head desire because we've been too blind or whatever to see the more subtle signs. I can remember in college my fraternity brothers chiding me that I only wanted the women I couldn't get and that I couldn't recognize when there were women interested in me without getting hit over the head with a hammer...HARD. Gotta wonder if that isn't part of the problem today. Anyway, solidmech posted this today, and it kind of struck a chord with me:
"For many married people, married sex requires intent, it requires will, it requires a decision to be sexual, even when you don't feel like it. It doesn't happen spontaneously, or out of physical desire. Our expectation that it should may raise our hopes to the point where it prevents real closeness."
Guess what I'm saying is perhaps we need to take a step back, appreciate what we have so that we don't throw the baby out with the bath water. 'Course, it would help if our respective spouses would learn to carry a big hammer!
HP, I wish I could offer more words of advice. I know that you'll make it work though, you seem to be one of the more insightful folks here. I'm praying for you.
GGB, still waiting for his silver hammer to come down upon his head too.
Quote: I don't want that role and I'm no good at it anyway. At another point in the weekend, I flew off the handle at him because I was talking to him and D2 would scream every time I opened my mouth. She was standing right next to him. He did nothing. I spewed out a bunch of stuff about him not being a man and allowing her to treat me that way..it was despicable, blah blah. I really was horrible, I'm telling you. He does NOT make our children treat me with respect. OTOH, I am very firm with them that they respect their Dad and would never tolerate them doing that...screaming every time he opened his mouth so that they can monopolize the scene. I realize that I wasn't teaching them to respect him this weekend, with the way I was treating him either.
Just a quick segue onto this single issue (and not wanting to take the focus off the point of your post).
However:
Daughters go through a period of time (at incredibly early ages) where they push really hard to cut mom out of the relationship. I was a daddy's girl, and my dad was amused by it and allowed me to run roughshod over my mom. It was "me and him" and mom was the third person out. There was never any sexual connotations to this at all, but my dad failed to address it and that failure reverberated for years in my relationship with mom. Lo and behold many years later I had a daughter. And history began to repeat itself. One vivid example comes to mind, NOP and D were in the floor drawing on a chalkboard together. I merely came in to say "hi", see how they were doing and attempt to be a part. (Please note, I loved to see the two of them interacting and didn't try to include myself in their activities on a regular basis). D took one look at me when I entered, ignore me and very obviously moved so that her back was to me and physically/visually put herself between me and NOP. She was about 3 at the time. It was a very effective snub. These little occurances had been going on for sometime, but this one nailed my heart and I left the room in tears. NOP let her know in no uncertain terms that what she did was unacceptable. And you know what? That sort of behavior never arose again.
Of course this was the same child who told us that when she grew up she was going too marry daddy. I wasn't inclined to inform her of the morality/legality of such. A few years later she decided that when she got married, she & hubby would live with us. A couple of years later, the plan was to live in the house next to us. The point is, that it is a very natural thing for little girls to adore their dad.
Hubby needs to deal with daughter. He may be getting caught up in the pleasant glow of being so much admired by daughter, BUT for daughter's own sake and health as well as her relationship with you, he must (and it has to come from him) nip that in the bud. Period.
See, I guess I'm waiting for H to hammer me on the head with something, uh, softer. Doh! Not soft...but definitely not made of metal.
I do know that he shows little signs that I am supposed to be taking as desire. I don't know...at the risk of sounding like a hardheaded jacka$$, I just am not willing to accept that any longer. I DON'T WANT TO GO BACK TO THAT R.
He NEVER shows outright desire. I usually have to make it known that it is "okay" for him to proceed or he won't. Over the weekend he gave me Passionate Pecks many times (as he has done since I had the baby) and I liked it. But dammit the days of me always being the one to turn it into a real kiss are OVER. He needs to stretch himself and grow. He needs to stick his neck out and attempt to show his inner sexual self to me.
I am tired of making everything 'safe' for him so that he can proceed. I am not asking this as a daily occurrence. Or even a weekly one. ONE sign of sexual aggressiveness from him would probably have me floating on the clouds for several weeks. Furthermore, I am so EASY! When I say sexual aggressiveness, I am talking about one notch up from his Passionate Pecks. In no way would he have to turn into Don Juan.
He keeps all this bottled up inside himself and then just wants me to trust that it's there. He shows it when we are engaged in ML but he has also admitted that much of our lovemaking is because he wants to "keep me happy".
Part of it is also that I don't particularly find buttoned-up prudes attractive. Last night I was looking at him and thinking, Now what is it that I find attractive about him? He's a nice person and so very enjoyable to be around but..truly..what is it that I find sexually attractive about him?
His body attracts me but his personality can quickly quench that fire.
I guess what I am trying to say is that I can live with him being uncomfortable in his own sexual skin for the majority of the time. It's the minority of the time that's gettin to me. I HAVE to see it sometimes. I have to know that my own husband wants me and finds me attractive. The absence of compliments, sexual affection, innuendos, initiation and snuggling (can't do that! It might lead to sex..) add up to a bland and bleak life.
I asked my H yesterday: "I think I deserve this. Do YOU think I deserve this?" He said Yes.
So what is the holdup??
Patience is not one of the virtues that I possess, can you tell. However, since we've been married 9 years maybe I should rethink that statement! It's not like I've given him 10 minutes to step up to the plate, eh.
Interestingly we are having a good email conversation today. Basically I badgered him into saying that he wants to have sex with me. This sounds weird, but we were joking with each other. H and I have always used humor to bridge the gaps between us. However, I then asked him why I have to badger him to have sex with me and he has retreated and is not responding any longer. lol
Honey, who can't keep her mouth shut these days.
Oh well the 'other man' fantasies are subsiding a bit so that is good...
Mrs, Thank you for posting this. I had posted something like this wayyyyyy back when but was never sure how it came out. There is a tendency for people to think, Aww how cute; they adore each other!
And they do. All of my D's (including the little one!) love my H and he adores them to the point of complete spoilage.
When I was pregnant with D2 (and totally sexually cut off, mind you) my H was in the worst of his love affair (and I mean that in the most loving and innocent manner) with our older daughter. She would go to her room and call for him and then shut the door behind him! So that I could not come in, obviously. She wanted him all to herself. He was weak enough that he allowed this to go on day after day. I would sit in the living room by myself, fat and pregnant and lonely for my family. Of course, it didn't start when she was 2..it had been going on for some time. I finally blew up and asked him to address it and he did. From that day on, their play time in her room was over and was replaced with family time.
Then D2 arrived and we began to repair the sexual part of our relationship and things really improved in the parenting department. He was really on board with including me in everything and enjoying the fact that he could spend time with me and not feel guilty.
Still, though, the discipline and respect thing eludes him. He disciplines them in terms of keeping the house clean but will not say anything if D5 starts to sass me and such. This drives me crazy! I can't help but to say something if she is doing it to him...both because he is my husband and I usually defend him (lol, didja like the usually) and because I have devoted my life to raising her and will NOT allow her to turn into some sassy, mouthy brat who doesn't even respect her own father--this is my job and career and I take it seriously, you know?
For his part, he says that the time he spends with them is so short that he hates to be the bad guy ogre when he is home. I understand that but I sure see the Ogre coming out when they leave socks on the floor, so that's not the whole picture. I think that a part of him feels weird being the head of the family...the strong man...the disciplinarian...the guy who wants sex from his wife...an authority figure to his kids.
Well, I'm really making him sound like a ***** and he isn't. He's just inconsistent and too polite for his own good. That is the 'niche' he fills in his family, who are a bunch of volatile psychos. He was the Good Son, the polite one who never did anything wrong. Then he grew up and was the Marine of the Year. Etc.
He wants to be the good guy all the time and our D's need him to set boundaries for them and I need him to be baaaaaaaaaad once in a while. LOL
Thanks for the input; it is good to know that other Dad's out there struggle for balance. I would like to see him teach our girls to respect me, so that burden doesn't fall on my solely on my shoulders as well.
I can see where you are coming from. My W is the same way she just can't fathom that I want to see desire from her. She doesn't want to be touched sexually or really any other way but then won't touch me in anyway unless I ask. And asking really takes the fun out of it. I feel for ya.
