Let's see if I can help you remember.... You did say last night that S. said he does want to talk about the R. (or was it the 5LL's) but that he was looking for a safe space (time) to talk. You mentioned that that part of the conversation was good, calm & clear and that you realized he wasn't avoiding anything and that he DID want to work on it. You said you felt quite sure of that.
So I asked you what does S. need to feel he's in that safe space? What needs to happen (or not happen)? If you can't put your finger on that, how about listing what DOESN'T make S. feel safe to talk? What makes him withdraw or seek cave time?
Quote: So what do I need to focus on now, and use it to move forward?
Well, I think you know what I would say because we talk so much, but I'll say it anyways so you'll have it in writing
I have believed that S. does want things to work out and that he has trying. I have thought that you've gotten sidetracked - sometimes due to silly snooping & ASSumptions, and other times by expectations or scripting, rather than communicating more clearly what it is you want. Whatever, I keep thinking that perhaps it's best to focus on the positives, on all the fun things you guys are doing, and all that you are getting. How about using the knowledge that you know he's trying, and start focusing on his LL's and creating the wonderful, fabulous, exciting, yet oh-so-safe environment for S. to have that talk you guys keep talking about talking about (poor English intended!)
Hugs, -H2H
PS: DB girlie sleep-overs are awesome - watch out you San Francisco Treats (GBO,Azure, Maya) the NY Duo will be heading your way soon!
That's an important insight, Jen--he's not inching toward the door, so you can feel a wee bit safer, and thus more able to be vulnerable and giving. Not that there are ever guarantees, but it helps to have the commitment, no?
Sounds like he needs to get through the conference. Good idea to let him do that and focus on you.
Jennifer, I am cheering you on and impressed with the clarity you can find in the middle of night discussions as well as the positives you are focusing on.
I have often caused trouble in OR by insisting on R talks, or even talks on other contentious subjects, in the wee hours. If it's been that way for you, then this sounds like a good baby step.
And the realization that S is not inching towards the door but maybe you are is great. I got to the point where I needed to come to this BB because I was acting without thinking. Eventually I will get the kind of self awareness that you're talking about in this post. Thanks for mentioning it.
K
My sitch More importantly, Light A Million Candles
I have nothing much to update, except that after the initial two phone calls (from airplane seat and then from friend's house when he arrived), I have not talked to S. He called the morning after his talk to let me know how it went. The VM was OK - not really tender or loving but as though he were talking to a friend. He said the talk went "pretty OK," he "thinks it was alright," things like that. Afterward, he went out with his friend (a professor at the univ where he spoke) "and [pause] a graduate student." I was laughing (a little bitterly, I admit) that boy, are they dumb. Whatever, so I haven't made it safe for S. to tell me that he was hanging out with yet another 20-y-o woman? OK, I can accept that. I told H2H that the worst-case scenario is that she was cute, and S. flirted with her. I can handle that!
So I didn't call him back right away, which in hindsight I should have done. I waited until late, when I'd gotten home from the office and moved the cars and had something to eat, and by then it was 11:15 his time and his phone was turned off. I left a VM and haven't heard from him today (when he comes home).
I admit, I'm disappointed he didn't stay in more contact while away, but I can't be too disappointed because of our interactions before he left. AND, technically, I should have felt perfectly comfortable calling him whenever I wished. I'm realizing that by waiting for him to make the move and call all the time, I am giving him the impression that he has all the power and I have to crouch around and wait and hope for the crusts of bread he deigns to toss down.
Anyway, I'm feeling the crunch of pre-TG preparations, and a lot of work-work to do before we go to Vermont (the final book of my big project goes to the printer in mid-December! yaaaaaaaayyyyyy!). I think I'll take the opportunity to be a little dark, get my work done, see some friends I haven't seen in a while, and get my house in order.
Something I remembered from our late-night talk, that I think is important:
* S. said he is always feeling pressure from me to go out and do things. (This goes back to the party girl image, and he apparently hasn't let go of it, and so there is work to be done there to shore up my homebody image.)
H2H, you are right that I realized while we were talking that S. wants to talk about the R but feels there isn't a safe space yet. I remembered a talk S. and I had months ago about safe spaces, and to him this means lots of good-will-building activities (watching movies in bed at night is big for him). This is why, when I thought we should be talking after dinner in Vermont, he was asking me if I wanted to watch a movie. He was trying to create a safe space to talk, after the initial hard days we had there (bickering, etc.). At the time, I was annoyed that he didn't want to talk - I thought he was avoiding talking by wanting to watch a movie. Now I see what he was trying to do.
He kept saying during our late-night talk "I am talking right now because I know you want to talk, and because I am awake." He was trying to communicate, "I am exhausted and need to get some sleep, but you obviously have a lot on your mind and I want to be here to listen to it." I trust that. Boy I need to get to work on creating that safe place, on his terms, not mine. HE'S the one who needs it - a safe place for me is any ol' time I feel like opening my fat mouth!
I just have to remember to keep a little dark this weekend, as my instinct is to hang out with him as much as possible (since he's been away). We are going to Vermont for 5-6 days on Tuesday or Wednesday, so it is my job to create some longing on his part so that when we get to Vermont, he isn't already sick of me! I also think he needs some space to think on his own - because I think he was reacting to me badly earlier this week and probably has some issues to sort out. I'd much rather have him over-reflective than on-the-spot "I'm angry at you because you haven't given me any space to think."
Quote: I'm realizing that by waiting for him to make the move and call all the time, I am giving him the impression that he has all the power and I have to crouch around and wait and hope for the crusts of bread he deigns to toss down.
Awesome realization!
Quote: Learning the hard way,
Yep, I'm afraid that's the glue that binds all of us together and got us here in the first place!
Great job!
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
I was going to post on my thread, but decided my employer deserved more of my time because that could take two hours. However, I decided to stop by and see what's up with you and there certainly has been a lot of activity in your neighborhood.
First, I must add that you are doing a great job in trying to understand S and how your actions influence him. As Betsey noted, however, you also need to understand YOU.
I won't lecture again on maritial versus non-marital commitment (I should use this as an automatic insert on yours on H2H's thread), but will remind you that I believe this is a critical distinction even if M and non-M R's have similar dynamics at various levels.
Within this framework, it occurred to me that significant open questions remain about S's goals and needs in his R with you and I wonder if you (or S for that matter) truly understand what they are. For example, if a T were to sit down with S and ask him: "What are your plans with Jennifer and how do you hope to achieve them," what would S say? Would his answers be different if he said 1) he wanted to marry you and live happily ever after; 2) he thinks about marrying you but is not sure; or 3) he just enjoys the R for what it is now and he'll take it from there one step at a time.
With this, maybe you can see the distinction with plans and action steps in general committed Rs versus married Rs. For instance, if he planned to marry you, S's plans would focus not only on his needs, but how to make you happy for the rest of your life and truly melding his needs with yours. On the other hand, if he was just thinking about it--the plans would not only consider the items above, but also what actions he might take to convince you that he was Mr. Right (your actions may already suggest to him that you've already made up his mind and he can skip the hard work entailed in this part). It would also include the slow dance of convincing himself that you were Mrs. Right--a place that involves all the testing you noted above. It could also include a test with no end where external circumstances compel him to make a decision. Finally, if it's still just a regular R with no clear destination, the plan may simply be to do whatever works for him right now--which requires accommodating your needs at times, but may only be relevant to the extent it ultimately satisfies his needs alone.
IMHO, his goals necessarily influence your goals and actions in your R with him. Right now, you seem to be trying to get your arms around a big blob of jello, but within the mold you have selected. It has some shape and offers delicious rewards, but still is very hard to grasp.
Only you can decide whether or how far to force these issues, but the questions remains: Where is S and what does HE want?
It's the long-lost Merrick, back from obscurity to give JinBklyn a kick in the shorts! Merrick, I appreciate what you've said. I agree for the most part, and I need some time to digest it before I respond. To be honest, though, the thought exhausts me. But I shall overcome! I do appreciate your continued support.
A good DB buddy pointed out very clearly to me today in an e-mail: I thought you were so positive and spot on in Wendy's thread - I want to see you exhude that positivism in your own relationship with that guy we DO know LOVES YOU!
Yeah, me too. Today was a trying day. I hadn't heard from S. since he arrived in IL except for a VM yesterday morning, and nothing all day today, He finally called from the airport in IL to say he was coming home. I managed to sound cheerful for about 5 seconds. Yuck. I was ANNOYED. I had sent H2H a few e-mails to help calm me down, because I knew what was coming, and she tried valiantly to help, to no avail. (Sorry I let you down, my friend. )
Anyway, I could tell he was fishing for a ride, and was telling me what precise time he was getting to the airport and what airport. I was fairly silent. I mean, come out and say it! So he finally did, and I let him know I was annoyed that he hadn't called, and if he'd wanted me to pick him up he could have had the courtesy to call before 5:30 p.m. the day of, and here's classic S.:
I'm not asking you for a ride. I'm just seeing if you're available. If you can pick me up, great, and if not, it's fine for me to take a car.
UGH. I guess I should have seen that one coming, too. So I'm feeling resentful, because I'm GOING! But why do I do this to myself? I feel like an afterthought.
I managed to pick it up again and find some cheerfulness to ask how everything went. He recounted some fun things he did after presenting his paper, including being interviewed by the local NPR affiliate, and speaking to a class of high-school journalism kids. (Hmm, I wonder if there were any cute 17-year-olds? JUST KIDDING!) He said they'd gone to bed pretty early every night because they were up early in the a.m. with the kids (explaining the phone being turned off when I tried to call last night).
So I cracked a joke, and he grunted, and we talked a few more minutes, and I cracked another joke, and he actually laughed. I was glad, because right after I nyah'ed at him he said, "Well I should get my things together and get going to the plane," trying to get off the phone with this shark as quickly as possible, and I managed to keep him on AND redeem myself to a certain degree.
How can I be so clear on other people's threads and make such a bloody mess of my own?
This may come as a shock to you, but you don't have to put your whole life on the BB. There's no need to "answer" my post, it's just some food for thought to maybe get a better sense of your R's bearings.
(poor English intended!)
Betsey 
Merrick, I appreciate what you've said. I agree for the most part, and I need some time to digest it before I respond. To be honest, though, the thought exhausts me. But I shall overcome! I do appreciate your continued support. 
Today was a trying day. I hadn't heard from S. since he arrived in IL except for a VM yesterday morning, and nothing all day today, He finally called from the airport in IL to say he was coming home. I managed to sound cheerful for about 5 seconds. Yuck. I was ANNOYED. I had sent H2H a few e-mails to help calm me down, because I knew what was coming, and she tried valiantly to help, to no avail. (Sorry I let you down, my friend. 
