Wow, lots of hard work over here - Great! I also stole this from Sage (Thanks Sage!) some months ago and not to long ago posted the 'assignment' on my thread (though without the 'answers' I had written out in my journal).
I also added two other parts to the assignment because I felt that working on the myths (or as I called them 'negative' adjectives he would use to describe me) were only part of the equation. I also wanted to enhance and reinforce the positives he had noticed (and that I wanted to expand in my life). I think it's a good balance to focus on our good sides as well as 'not-so-good' issues.
And since you're in hard work mode, I'll post part 2 & 3 here for your 'working pleasure' .
Part 2: - What positive adjectives would S. use to describe you? - What positive changes has he noticed? - What actions can you take to reinforce this perception & remain consistent?
Part 3: - What adjectives would I like to be used in describing me? - What actions/behaviors would fit those adjectives?
I found Part 3 rather fulfilling because the entire focus was what I wanted to be, how I wanted to be and be seen by others, and what I would do to become that fabulous person. It was a great way to get away from the sitch for a while and think really about ME and the kind of life I wanted to have.
Gee, on girlie slumber night are we going to compare our nerdy, geeky journals? Nah, a good dinner, good wine, and good conversation should be enough!
This is great homework, Jennifer and H2H (and Sage!). Jennifer, I'm particularly impressed with your willingness to be a little, um, brutal with yourself. A great step toward change.
I had an e-mail from a DB buddy today that, in part, said the following. Does anybody have any thoughts on this? For the record, this person is a man.
I think these are important things to think about and you still have a long way to to go. While I really appreciate your insight on S's family and its impact on him, I don't think it should be an excuse for him not trying to satisfy your needs if he really cares about you.
In many respects, it seems that S does well when he is in control of the R, but has a really hard time when he does not dictate the terms. This doesn't mean he won't get there, but it appears there is still along way to go. The fact that he did not call you for an extended period after such a great weekend saddened me--because IMHO it shows that he is still trying to protect himself from getting too close. Perhaps he is gradually moving into his next phase of closesness, but he clearly is not there yet.
It seems like the two of you are still testing each other, and I guess from my own sitch, I'm so tired of the games and just wish a person could commit or not. I may just be projecting my sentiments onto your R, but you have needs to and at some point S has to be a willing partner in trying to meet those needs or else the two of you will end up on the R ash heap like the rest of us. At the same time, I remember that patience is a key, so as long as you feel you are seeing progress and can contribute to this through your actions, [good for you].
I wonder if I'm not being a little dense, and that he is being reticent about commitment and not treating me well. I admit I was disappointed at the not calling the day after we got back, but I chalked it up to the fact that we had that intimacy diffculty that morning and he was feeling a little distant.
I don't know. I'm a little confused. Any thoughts?
Just for the record - for folks who know we're DB buddies - that message didn't come from me.
While I don't really see anything particularly wrong with DB Buddy's point in the message, I also don't think it should give you cause to worry either. Insight on S's family is helpful (relevant) and I don't recall you using it as an excuse for him not trying to satisfy your needs. The fact is that we all have many reasons why we find it difficult to satisfy the needs of those we love. Understanding the life experiences of your partner and what role they may have in your current R is IMHO a useful thing to do.
It does seem that you are both 'testing' - that is, you both have some fears (reticent) about commitment. I don't think this is news to you - we have talked about that. You know that you are self-protective and I think it's normal for both of you to hang on to that and shed it slowly. And I don't think S. is NOT trying to meet your needs.
Things are not 'perfect' (whatever that means), but in my eyes you both seem to be trying. You have had your share of pouts and hurts, and your share of rolling your sleeves up and trying to get it right. You both seem to be willing to come back to sticky issues and work them out.
Why would this one message lead you to suddenly cast so much doubt? This is life, Jennifer, not Hollywood. There are things to work out - past behaviors to shake, new ways of dealing with issues to be forged. You know this.
I'd hate to see you retreat further into self-protection and doubt because one day he didn't call you. It's neither right nor wrong, it's just the way he dealt with it and we can't really mind read why. Since then you have had several (if not many) great moments.
Quote: ...at some point S has to be a willing partner in trying to meet those needs or else the two of you will end up on the R ash heap like the rest of us.
Huh? I'm sorry but this just seems like dramatic projection to me - I couldn't even begin to say that S. has not been a willing partner. Yes, there are wrinkles to work out still, but you are aware of these and doing a great job of working out your role in ironing them out.
Keep working, Jennifer - you are and have been seeing progress!
I'm not going to respond to the content of the message because it sounds as though there might be a message you're mulling over? I figure this because if it wasn't, you wouldn't have posted an e-mail here as food for thought for further discussion? I'm not sure, and this is definitely a guess.
But I've found throughout the years that there is something to an unsolicited male opinion. Particularly one who might be considered a friend or at the very least, someone who cares. I've been fortunate enough to have some wonderful men who have delivered messages to me that they knew were bound to bother me, but they considered themselves friends with a stake in my happiness.
That has particularly been true here on the BB. But I just want to reaffirm my thoughts on this subject with a story. It isn't meant to draw any parallels or get you to think I'm trying to give you a template to transfer to your own sitch. It's merely about the truth of an opinion provided by the opposite sex. After all, who knows men better than other men? (And the reverse is true too.)
I was madly in love with the boyfriend I had before Mr. W. I worked as one of few females on a very large DoD project in Silicon Valley--surrounded by males (which is where I met Mr. W.). I had followed said boyfriend there from VA--we had a very dramatic meeting on a water taxi on a gloomy firth in Scotland, and it was kismet and love at first sight for both of us. This propelled me to take lots of risks and chances.
After about a year, I became a little uneasy. I was VERY attached to him, though. Very unhealthily attached, I might add. I began to morph myself into the ultimate career woman. At T's urgings, I entered and was accepted into an MBA program at a local university.
I worked out like a fiend to keep my stylish figure. And I found out that the friends I was making weren't exactly the ones I had been attracted to most of my life. Something made me uneasy about all of that stuff, but I wasn't willing to accept failure as an option. I saw getting him to marry me as my ultimate challenge. After all, everyone used to tell us how cute we were together and how ideally suited we seemed to be. My female friends were especially taken with our "how we met" story. It was the stuff of fairy tales. But all I really wanted was to get married and have kids. I was 27, and I was ready.
But my male friends had a different opinion. Half of them were married, and the other half not. Every single one of them told me that T was not right for me. One of my married male friends finally took me to lunch and commented, "Betsey, he seems to be in love with the idea of you, and not YOU. I don't know why you continue to bang your head against the wall and think that your next acquiesing move in his favor is going to work out in yours. It's just not gonna happen. He's not a bad person, Bets. But he's not the right one for you. Think about it."
Enter Mr. W. (who also became a friend at work). One day, he called me and asked me out bowling. We were both on bowling leagues and that was my night to bowl, so I asked him to come up and watch. He considered this our first date; I considered it just hanging out.
He later told me he considered it our first date. Which is when I asked him how on earth he had the chutzpah to ask me out, given the fact that I had pictures of T and me with him all over my desk? He smiled and said, "If you can't see by now that he isn't the right guy for you, I don't know what it will take. I'm not worried about him."
By then, I started taking a good hard look at myself, what I wanted and who I wanted to be with. I was amazed that the answer had been within all along. Much to both of our surprise, I broke up with him. Jennifer, our breakup was miserable and forlorn and it left both of us angry.
A few years ago, when we headed back to the Bay Area for my 40th birthday, T had dinner with us (as a family). He was married and his wife was expecting their first baby. Mr. W. took the girls back to the hotel so he and I could have some coffee and catch up.
He blew me away with quite a few things I had not known previously--it had been 10 years since we had seen each other (and we still keep in touch now). He ended up confirming that everything my male friends had told me was right.
Ironically, he married someone awfully close to my former personality and who is a career woman and stylish and bossy. She is well educated and seems to have her act together. However, he was fighting some internal battles in his marriage.
The primary battle was that he seemed to have that type of standard in his head for marriage. Not many women can fill those shoes AND be the kool aid mom he ultimately wanted her to morph into. When we last spoke, he was mentioning things that led me to believe he was a little disillusioned that she wasn't becoming the person he wanted her to be. Well, really, how does ultra career woman just drop that part of herself and become Mrs. Mom?
It took me a few nights of mulling this over to finally see what my male friends had seen all along.
My male friends here also told me things about Mr. Wonderful's state of mind that are now obviously true. The truth can't hurt anyone, Jen. What I found out hurt the most was when I refused to see what others whose opinions and perspectives I cherished were pointing out.
Even though T and I are friends now, for the life of me, I can't imagine myself married to him. He's wonderful and intelligent and giving (and extraordinarily handsome to boot), but not right for me. Lucky for me that I figured out how to have balance by being a career woman who is also a kool aid mom. I love both of my jobs, but my family comes first.
So that's my two cents worth on a male opinion. I'm not saying that you should take others opinions as your own. Just consider them when you feel like all the puzzle pieces aren't fitting correctly. Then just mull over some more.
I hope you're not too disjointed by any of this stuff. You seem like a really lovely person--talented, savvy, educated, well-traveled, and with great social graces (yes, good manners rank very high with me too). You're also fun, passionate, sweet and willing to work hard.
Make sure you give yourself EVERYTHING (and I mean EVERYTHING) you deserve. Never less. Whatever that might be.
Hugs.
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Hi Jennifer, I don't know what to make of either story. Maybe it is too late and I am too tired to think straight, but I do know that your steady DBing, even in the face of S not "behaving" as you expect or prefer often brings about the very stuff you are looking for. For example- 1)the table fiasco, you chose to "act as if" the day you left, and ended up with a warm email telling you he was looking forward to your weekend in VT. 2)the mattress/bedroom dilemma and initial pouting but then you read up and decided to "act as if" and he responded with affection. So I am hoping you are able to keep DBing and overlooking it when he isn't up to snuff so you get to some good stuff this weekend together.
Gosh, I hope I didn't give the impression that I thought you should not take the message into consideration... If I had to summarize what I was thinking as I was posting it is that right now, while there are some issues or problems, IMHO it might be worthwhile to continue focusing on the positives and what you ARE getting.
I think what got to me was the 'heap of ash' comment. I think we see on the BB many relationships at various points, with heap of ash being way over on one side of the spectrum. I see your R pretty far from that side, and believe you have seen many positives toward creating a r that will satisfy both your needs.
I think I said clearly that I didn't necessarily disagree with the content of the message - the part of fearing commitment - and I still don't after pondering this overnight. This may well be food for thought for you and all of us really. My main 'objection' (too strong a word, but can't find a better one at the moment) is that it seemed to me to take the 'half empty' view. At this point in the early stages of reconciliation, I wonder if there isn't more merit (and this is a real question, not a statement) in focusing on the positives and as you have been doing, examining your 'issues' and/or role in the way things are. If we keep looking at the shortcomings as tea leaves, expecting them to be a sign of our worst fears, then it just may become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Anyways, I'm not sure if I'm making much sense here. If I had to say it in one sentence I'd say: Focus on the positives, note the negatives, and work on finding solutions and understanding your fears.
Oh and ditto to Betsey's statement "Make sure you give yourself EVERYTHING (and I mean EVERYTHING) you deserve. Never less. Whatever that might be."
Your posts are one of the reasons I decided to start posting. You write beautifully and I admire your honesty. I have learned a lot from your story.
I've always had male friends make me doubt that I was with the right person. In retrospect, I think many of my male friends' judgments were clouded by the fact that they fancied me somewhat. While Betsey's male friends turned out to be right, I can remember some male friends who tried to put me off my first long-term boyfriend at university. We ended up not staying together because I came to the UK for graduate school and he went to California. I saw him again this summer after 20 years. He is married now. I definitely think we could have made it as a couple. All this to say that I think my male friends' views turned out to be wrong.
I think other people's views are important but that they are so multiply controlled that we need to think about them carefully. At the moment, I have two male friends who are recommending that I give my H the boot. They say that H will only recommit if he is forced into a separation first. They may have a point but I'm not willing to take that gamble at the moment.
By the way, I've followed your instructions to Anne about how to get your thread in your signature. I hope I've got it right.
On another note, I really liked your birthday card to your WASO. My H is into meditation and it definitely would have appealed to him.
Wendy
Me: 51 H: 52 T: 23 yrs M: 19 yrs S18, D16, S14 (special needs) PA: 2003/2004 Piecing: 2004 on Suspect H had EA: 8/2012-12/2012
Just wanted to drop by and say hello and see how you were feeling this morning. I hope you had a good and upbeat weekend!
Wendy, just want to make sure you understood that I wasn't advocating Jen taking anyone's advice as her own. Just to consider it if there is something that doesn't fit right. Nobody--including you--should feel as though someone else knows you or your sitch better than you do.
Hindsight is a wonderful and useless thing... what matters is that we make the best decisions for ourselves so that we don't look to our past with regret.
Have a good week, you guys!
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Thanks, H2H, Betsey, Anne, and welcome, Wendy! Thanks so much for your thoughtful responses and very kind words. I feel very looked after, thank you.
I am feeling shaky at the moment - S. has been busy preparing for a talk he is giving at out of town and I have been swirling thoughts through my head about the state of the R and what it is I want, exactly. Another MF last night (an old one, who has fancied me through the years - 14 of them, to be precise) was asking me some of these very same questions above and some I am asking myself, about compromise and how you know if someone is "right" for you. He and I have an understanding - we truly are good friends - and as long as I am happy he is happy for me. Really. So there was little if any ulterior motive there.
I am pretty contemplative these days and I think I'll take a break from posting on my own thread just to sort some things through. I'm so see-sawy right now that I'm not sure anything I wrote would be valid 5 minutes after I wrote it, and I'd rather hash some things out on paper for my eyes only. I'll come back when the storm has died down a little and I have a little more perspective.
On a happier note, tomorrow night I am going over to H2H's for a girlie slumber party a deux. I am really looking forward to some female company. S. comes back Friday, and so I am looking forward to a week of calm and All About Me. I have a lot of work to catch up on.
Another thing I'm planning is to join the Alliance Francaise - I am tired of not using my French and they have literature, philosophy, and current event classes in French, and philosophy discussion groups, social events, films, and a nice library.
S. and I picked up our tickets for Chile today. I'm not all that excited, and I'm not sure why. One thing is, I don't think I've ever planned a trip this far in advance (it's in January)! and it feels weird to me. I usually take off on a whim when I see a good fare bargain. So having to wait so long feels a little strange. I'm sure that once the holiday crush is over I will be very excited.
Thanks again, everyone, for your input. I think I'm at one of those places in DB life where I stop and take stock. Funny, the e-mail I posted above came when I was actually thinking a lot about these things already, so it acted as a catalyst for deeper thought. Now is as good a time as any, right?
.
I figure this because if it wasn't, you wouldn't have posted an e-mail here as food for thought for further discussion? I'm not sure, and this is definitely a guess.
Betsey