Good stuff ladies! I am so happy to read that you had a good weekend, Jennifer. And I am excited to see the huge turnaround you were able to effect with your AHA moment. I am so hopeful about this working with my H, as I have slowly been doing the gratitude and appreciation, I know my H loves to be thought of as a smart, capable, financially sound man who knows what is best. It is hard to get that out without puffing them up so much they take over everything, anyone with experience on that?
so good to read all the good news about the LL working!!! maybe it will work for me too. I am optimistic.
I'm trying to add my thread to the bottom in my signature line, but I don't think it is quite working yet! BUT- please feel free to visit my thread anyway! "New member trying to have patience with DBing.
LnL, H2H, Anne, thanks for stopping by! I have more to tell, but I thought I’d catch up to this validating theme we seem to be having on several different threads. H2H, I’ve quoted you from Betsey’s thread as well as from mine. Ways we invalidate our partners:
Quote: - Calling at work to discuss small things and then getting upset when he said he was busy. Falls under: not respecting his job. This can be lumped into a more general category of bringing up things at the wrong time and/or wrong place and not respecting his feelings on that - or not accepting that he has a different preference for the time/place/topic.
Oh, boy. Let me add to that: Not respecting his time boundaries and pouting when he wants to get up and get moving in the morning. Forcing the continuation of a conversation when he is trying to get ready to do something else and has indicated that he wants to stop talking for now.
Quote: - Finishing sentences, rushing him along, generally not allowing him to speak in the conversational style he is comfortable with. (Which is W-A-Y to slow for me...).
I hear you. S’s manner of carrying on a conv is WAY too slow for me, too. There are often long pauses where I don’t know if he’s moved on to thinking about something else, or if he is still thinking about what I said. Often, the pause is so long that I’m not sure he even physically heard me. This falls into the category of not respecting his own rhythm of speech, though I have to admit it drives me BONKERS when I say something and (literally) three minutes or more go by without as much as a peep from S. And often we talk while one of us is doing something else, like preparing dinner, or cleaning up, and so the back is turned and I have to resist saying HELLOOOOOOoooooo?!?!? Did you hear me?!
Quote: I always had a 'better way,' jumped in guessing how he felt on things (or downright told him how he should feel about things),
Yep to this one, too. I tend to invalidate by saying things like “Why are you doing X that way?” or “Why are you doing X?” or “Why don’t you…?”
This past trip to Vt. (the one that was two separate weekends rolled into one), in the “Bad DBing” portion of the w-e, we were working in the woods and he took the tractor up a hill (towing the wood chipper) to turn it around so we could go back down the trail toward home. The last time, I had found a flat spot right where we were to do a U-turn. I couldn’t stop from asking him, “WHY are you going up there? I went THIS way last time.” And I got a very terse “I’M DOING IT THIS WAY.” Well, wouldn’t you know that the wood chipper overturned and got a big dent in it, and he broke the pin that attaches the chipper to the tow chain. I had to really restrain myself from getting angry that he hadn’t done it MY way. It’s his damned wood chipper. If he wants to go up the hill and break the pin and dent his chipper, then what’s it to me?
And I’m ALWAYS telling him how he should feel about XYZ. That his friends should be a certain gender and age. That he should feel the way I feel about things in our R.
Quote: Expressing admiration for things he's truly good at (like S.'s “woodlands prowess” or astronomy) is far more important than I ever realized. He talks so much more and tells me more detail about things he's done or is thinking about.
Take heed, Anne! You don’t puff them up so much that they take over everything, you puff them up so much that they feel respected, and only THEN do they feel comfortable letting you take the lead on MANY aspects of the R. It’s a waiting game. You stroke them, they puff up, you do it as a matter of course, and then, a miracle happens. They feel sufficiently respected to let you take over (because in truth, they really do respect you). Do you really think they want to direct things like household details and the like? No, they are just trying to assert authority over no matter what, because they don’t feel respected.
Great stuff, Jennifer, so true, so true. I copied it to read again and again. RESPECT is so important to my H, I need to figure out how to give him more of that more often, when he comes over he is so focused on the kids...
What have you all done with the pics you have of the 2 of you together and your wedding rings? I took mine down and off, then put them back on, and this week put the pics back up. My C said that if I am in, I need to show that outwardly, otherwise I am not "aligned". I wonder how he will react when he sees them up again.
It’s hard to go away from the BB for any length of time, because you end up with these massive posts and you haven’t said all there is to say! So, I continue with the catch-up, starting from last night’s theater and subsequent conversation.
I mentioned this elsewhere, but I remembered after I posted my last update that S., after feeling my full-on respect for two days, was falling over himself to court me again. This is what I’ve always wanted, to feel “taken care of,” to feel a little “fawned” over or doted on (as a woman), and to feel special, especially when we’re out among friends.
I noticed last night that S. was leading me through the crowds after the theater with a strong arm around my waist, that he was extra attentive about walking me around sidewalk grates (in my heels, which he has learned), and when we got to the restaurant, he pulled out my chair, which he rarely does and which he had also done at the dinner at his mom’s complex. Then, when we were leaving, I was taking my coat off the rack, with my back to S., and he said, “Is that your coat?” and reached over me to get it in order to hold it while I put it on. I gave him a big smile and he beamed.
So this morning, after feeling very connected and close and ML last night, he woke up and reached over to snuggle a little, making sure to wait the allotted few minutes before stating his intention to get out of bed. Not wanting to appear as though I wanted to hold him there, I said “OK” as cheerfully as I could muster in my morning haze. Then, because he was still lying there, I started to snuggle against him and touch his body (nonsexually).
I could feel, however, that he was starting to get aroused and we ended up engaging in foreplay, which I was encouraging at this point but he seemed very slow, maybe reticent, to engage in. So I felt he was probably detached because he wanted to get up, and I eventually said (because he didn’t seem to be really engaged) “What’s going on over there? It seems like you’re somewhere else.” To which he immediately pulled away and got defensive and asked what I meant. Turns out he was just really enjoying the moment, and he felt I was accusing him… I admit I didn’t phrase it very well, but I really hadn’t meant to be anything but inquisitive.
So it turned into a misunderstanding by which I felt rejected and he felt accused and misunderstood, and especially since I had initiated the sex and we didn’t follow through, I felt terrible (issues with initiating and profound feelings of rejection on the RARE occasions when we don’t have sex when I initiate – please no advice on this).
I was there feeling very upset and traumatized, and S. was feeling very defensive and detached, and Prince Charming suddenly shows up and says, “You know, we should talk about this. There’s no reason we should feel so hurt and confused when we’re obviously enjoying a very intimate moment together. We should try to straighten it out so it doesn’t happen again.” And I wanted to leap out of bed and knock him down with affection. (I didn’t. )
So, because we always say “we should talk about this and that” and never do, I asked him if he had any ideas on how to actually talk about it rather than just say we’re going to, and he said we should make a time when we’re not doing anything else, like preparing a meal or eating a meal, and get together and give ourselves a few hours to talk about some of these things. So we’re going to do that in the next 4-6 days.
As he as leaving, I said after him “Wait. I just wanted to thank you for turning that into a productive conversation. I was feeling very upset and rejected, and you turned it into something positive. I really appreciate that.” And he smiled as much as he could for someone who had just been made to feel bad for getting out of bed, and he went on home to get ready for the day.
I can’t tell all of you how relieved I am that our R has reached a point where I feel we’re both, equally, making an effort to address our issues. I have been feeling much the heavy lifter (though my posts belie this a little with all my stomping around and pouty faces), and I am so grateful to have my loving S. who is really (really! and I’m starting to believe it!) making an effort to address my feelings.
Positives from the last week:
+ He gave in and overcame his issues to sleep in the new bed because he knew I wanted to. + He validated my cooking over and over, thanked me profusely, and told a friend over the phone in my earshot that I had just cooked us a “delicious, I mean really tasty, absolutely delicious meal.” + He wanted me to come out with him and the forester to walk the property – something I would have thought he’d want to be a “man’s” thing – and told the forester that “Jennifer and I” have been doing this and that (out in the woods). + He talked to me a lot about his forest management philosophy and asked for my validation on his decisions. + He was SO absolutely excited to be able to “show” me the Northern Lights and be there for my first experience seeing them. He was giddy, and very affectionate as we watched them. + I was able to ask him with genuine interest, and with no hard feelings, about his upcoming talk, which he gives next week in Illinois (remember, this was the business trip I was uninvited to). He was very excited to talk about it and went on about it for over an hour. I asked good questions, and was able to be very proud of his ideas and validate them. He clearly loved talking to me about it. + He was in “courting” mode after a few days of feeling loved by me, which is EXACTLY what I have been missing in our R – that special feminine feeling. + He was able to diffuse a potentially bad situation this morning and make me feel loved and important.
Thanks for getting to the bottom of another long post!
I am really inspired reading your posts. And so looking forward to getting a chance to validate my H and give him the strokes he is looking for. I know I am not off the roller coaster yet, and who knows what will happen next, but your thoughtful posts are very inspiring! you go girl.
Jennifer, so glad to hear a great story from Vermont. Not only was it good, but you had a few rocky moments and actually learned from them and made things better....way to go! I liked H2H's post to you today and your own reflections on validating. There's a lot there for many of us to learn from. Thanks.
Thanks, guys - nice to have the validation myself !
So something you posted over on Pamila's thread made me stop short, GBO. I posted a little about it there, but I want to talk about it as it might relate to S. over here.
Quote: I read an interview with Shirley Glass in which she said that some people who have difficult childhoods marry stable, rooted partners but then go back later in life and find a more volatile person to resolve the issues of feeling unloved by such people (like their parents).
S's parents were very stable people - both scientists with academic careers, long-time married, bought a piece of land and built a house on it and stayed there for 35 years (until S's father's death). As I type, I realize that his father WAS volatile - had outbursts of emotion when things didn't go his way - and often screamed at S. and his sister. He was never physically abusive, but very emotionally so ("You never do anything right," "You're so careless," etc.). S. grew up learning to lay low, not to rock the boat, and to fear contact with his father.
So I wonder if (a) S. was attracted to me because at the time we met *I* was volatile (drinking a lot, going out all the time, dressing to kill every day, etc.), or (b) he somehow, through the alcoholic haze, saw my inner stability (a homemaker, a family person, someone who wants to nest). Certainly, OW is not volatile, though she is "exotic" (if you call a German living in Switzerland exotic ). I wonder, in fact, if OW is much more stable to S. than I am. She is a psychiatrist, has a stable job (I have always been more or less a freelancer), saves her pennies, and, after all, is German (which spells order and stability to S. as that is where his dad's side of the family is from - the Pennsylvania German family of austere, simple folk).
S. remarked to me once (after our one disastrous therapy session with my SBT), that my T had said something like "Don't you ever smile?" (which was a weird thing to say, in retrospect) after T had made a joke to diffuse the concrete-thick tension in the room, and S. didn't crack a smile - anyway, S. remarked that it was telling that T picked up on that, that with all the volatility around him, S. was retreated back into his shell so much that he couldn't smile at the joke. He said he read that it was a symptom of volatile childhoods that people were very serious all the time, for fear of letting their guard down with a smile or humor.
Huh. This post ended up in a very different place from where I thought it would when I started it!
*** Did not hear from S. all day yesterday, or last night. Went to bed, no word from him. Rare, but I'm sure he was taking cave time after the 5 days in Vermont and the weird intimacy thing yesterday morning. I'm annoyed, but hey, did I call? Nope. So I have nothing to complain about.
Back to the cheerful, devil-may-care me. The weekend should prove interesting as my friend/H has out of town company and I offered my room - so I will be staying at S's for the weekend. Of course, I often stay there, but this will be more like living together for the weekend. He has to work on his presentation (he leaves Tuesday), so lots of opportunity for QT (S-style working together - he on one thing, I on another, but together). AND lots of opportunity for validation (showing his time is precious, showing I support his going away to give the talk by giving him time/space to work, showing continued interest in it, AND getting out of his way).
Jennifer, your plans and goals for the weekend sound right on!
On the other question, which would probably be best plummed over a few happy hour drinks (and when ARE you and H2H going to take a western vacation over here--plenty 'o sailing, H2H!, and lots of great food!).....So which of you "three" (hate to glorify Swiss Miss that way) is volatile, in the end? Not that we can box anyone up so neatly, of course.
Okay, I'll be Lucy from Charlie Brown and give you my nickel's worth :
Seems to me that Swiss Miss represents stability, not volatility. (Sorry, my H's Spanish OW takes the cake on that one ). Sounds to me like your H has his own level of chaos going on inside, despite the stable upbringing, materially speaking. The stuff with his dad, combined with a sensititve temperament? He's easily hurt and wants to retreat to a secure and normal place. And yes, you have that volatility too. But you also have that homebody urge underneath, and you are making great, conscious effort to lift up some parts and heal some other parts. So--if your SO is looking for a mix of excitement and domesticity, this could really work.
You can pay me that nickel when you get here.....
Seriously, I think this is part of figuring out what works for you and SO. And makes me think that adding a little happy mystery over in my sitch could really go a long way. I'll never be [exotic-sounding name of OW] nor [exotic-sounding name of his early college not-quite girlfriend from Pakistan] for whom he tied himself in knots....but I can be more than plain Jane Yankee girl too. Hmmmm.
Quote: and when ARE you and H2H going to take a western vacation over here--plenty 'o sailing, H2H!, and lots of great food!)
You let me know what the warmest time is over there and I'll be there! I spent one summer in SF and nearly froze my patooties off. Spending June and July in a ski jacket (unless I am in Chile skiing ) was NOT my idea of a good time. Of course, I expect I'll be spending a lot of this winter in Vermont...
Anyway, I think you are right in some respects, although Swiss Miss is exotic in the way that she travels a lot. Of course, this makes her "Miss [OW's first name] Bond, International Woman of Mystery" (according to a letter S. wrote to her, YUCK)! But what did all MY traveling make me? S said, "You're unavailable to me. I want to be with someone who isn't running off halfway across the world for three weeks every two months."
I used to travel a LOT, especially when we first met. The week before we met, I was in Istanbul and Bulgaria for 10 days. Immediately after we met, I took off for Korea and Thailand for a month. Then Panama for 10 days, then Italy for three weeks, and a week in Puerto Rico, then Tunisia for three weeks. Not to mention a long weekend in London, a week in Denmark, and two weeks in Spain. AND, with frequent trips to Paris (where I lived for three years and have many friends) in between all these trips.
So I don't know. I think you're also right that I represent volatility and some kind of potential stability for him. I mean, I do go up to Vermont and toil in the woods and cocoon with him at night and stay home to watch movies together, but the image sticks... perpetuated by the fact that I go out with my friends (rather than having them over - this is New York after all, and people don't generally go to each other's apartment, AND I have the couple I live with), and when we were split up I was (evidenced by the dark window ) "out" all the time.
He says, often enough so I know it's a big deal, "I'm afraid you want to be a party girl." And let's not forget the matter of money. I've just extricated myself from a lot of consumer debt, which is a matter of great concern to S., who has been plotting and planning and socking away for his retirement since he was 21.
Anyway, I guess this is a good time to think about how I can extricate myself from this image. Back for a next installment soon.
How does S. perceive me? What are some truths and myths?
1. I’m a spender, not a saver. 2. I am emotionally volatile. I cry “at the drop of a hat.” 3. I want to be a “party girl”; I never want to stay at home. 4. I want to travel, at the expense of making a nest. 5. I don’t respect his time boundaries. 6. What he has to offer isn’t enough for me. 7. It is impossible to make me happy. 8. I am “intimidating.” 9. I can be condescending when I argue.
What can I do to dispel the myths and work on some of the truths?
1. I’m a spender, not a saver. (T, slowly becoming F)
History: One of S’s biggest concerns is that he won’t have enough. He has scrimped and saved and made wise financial decisions ever since he had two pennies to rub together. He admitted that finding out about my debt was so shocking to him that it caused him to seriously consider leaving me. Last October (2003), we made a plan to get myself out of more than 40K of consumer debt and re-establish my credit. I followed the plan diligently, reducing my debt to less than 9K in one year and additionally putting aside more than 10K in savings.
Action point: Continue to save, and be more transparent with my finances – ask him for help with planning, which he loves to give. It makes him feel more secure, and allows him “expertise validation.”
2. I am emotionally volatile. I cry “at the drop of a hat.” (T, working on it)
History: I do cry very easily – always have. I am extraordinarily sensitive, and tend to “tune up” at very little provocation. This is disturbing to S., who says that “tears symbolize crisis to me, and to a certain extent I have become inured to your crying.” S. has a history of emotional volatility with his father, with whom he had a severely damaged relationship (one that was not repaired before his F died five years ago).
Action point: Continue to work on not taking things personally. If I can really listen, and HEAR what S. is saying to me, rather than projecting, “He doesn’t love me…” I can overcome the raw emotion that wells up when he is telling me something that doesn’t necessarily live up to my expectations or assumptions about how the world works.
3. I want to be a “party girl”; I never want to stay at home. (F, with caveats)
History:When we met, I was drinking and going out a lot. I was dressing to kill every day, and going to all manner of arts functions (with dinners and lots of wine afterward). He often saw me coming home from having been out, and my ostensible MO at the time was using him for sex after I’d been out with my “real friends.” I’d call him after midnight from a cab, tipsy or downright drunk, and go to his house to have sex and sleep. Meanwhile, I never introduced him to any of my friends. He saw this as the exotic and fashionable and volatile me, someone who wasn’t giving him the time of day. Truth was, I was hurting a lot from being alone, and called him out of a sense of safety. He was my warm arms to go home to, because I didn’t want to go to my own cold, empty house alone. Now, when I want to go out as a means of spending QT with him, he sees it as “always” wanting to go out. I DO love to go out. But I DO love to stay home and cocoon.
Action point: Continue reinforcing my homebody tendencies. Instead of waiting for him to suggest watching a movie, suggest it myself. Only suggest we go out if it’s an occasion, or when I do want to go out just to eat, make it sound like a special thing, rather than something I’d be doing every day if I could.
4. I want to travel, at the expense of making a nest. (T part A; F part B)
History: See above post for travel history. No need to say more there. I DO love to travel – I just want to do it with him, and make it a part of our lives as much as a stable home.
Action point: Be more vocal about my desire to settle down and have a nice house and raise a family. I have done this recently, and he seems to respond well. When talking about traveling, make sure he knows it is NOT at the expense of settling down, that I see a balance.
5. I don’t respect his time boundaries. (T, have been working on it, but really just now “getting it”)
History: See above posts on validation; I tend to whine and pout when he wants to get up – I need attention in the morning and so I usually want to lie in bed a little longer than S., who is straining to leap out of bed at first eye opened. I keep conversations going long after he wants to stop in order to get ready to go somewhere, and I have made him late on many occasions because I wouldn’t shut up. I tend to force conversations when there isn’t enough time to have them, and often would get furious when he said it had to wait until later.
Action point: Keep doing what I’m doing, which is getting it with a big fat DUH and shutting my trap.
maybe it will work for me too. I am optimistic.
my H, I need to figure out how to give him more of that more often, when he comes over he is so focused on the kids... 
and we ended up engaging in foreplay, which I was encouraging at this point but he seemed very slow, maybe reticent, to engage in. So I felt he was probably detached because he wanted to get up, and I eventually said (because he didn’t seem to be really engaged) “What’s going on over there? It seems like you’re somewhere else.” To which he immediately pulled away and got defensive and asked what I meant. Turns out he was just really enjoying the moment, and he felt I was accusing him… I admit I didn’t phrase it very well, but I really hadn’t meant to be anything but inquisitive.
). I wonder, in fact, if OW is much more stable to S. than I am. She is a psychiatrist, has a stable job (I have always been more or less a freelancer), saves her pennies, and, after all, is German (which spells order and stability to S. as that is where his dad's side of the family is from - the Pennsylvania German family of austere, simple folk).
This is fun! More later!