Hi folks. Lots of things to report, backsliding on my part (though largely unknown to S., thank goodness)… The Green Monster (and I’m not talking about Fenway Park!) took me over and I had a bad reaction to something S. was doing with a F colleague that I thought he was lying to me about. As it turns out, I did NOT show up coincidentally – thankfully, H2H over e-mail, and the good MF I went out with last night, largely talked me out of it. In the end, it was good sense that won over (I knew I shouldn’t be doing it from the very beginning).
Here’s the scoop: Last week, I saw an e-mail he had forwarded to himself from work, inviting him to a party hosted by friends of the F colleague. He doesn’t forward e-mails to himself unless he wants to record them in his laptop at home. Later in the week, he told me he was going out with this F colleague that night (no mention of the party) “to help her with her finances.” I thought it was odd that finance night had been planned so far in advance (also that a colleague would do something so personal as to show him her finances), and the reason my mind went straight to the party in the first place is that this woman is in a music group with a “sexy trumpet player” that S. asked out on a date while we were split up. My crazymaker thought he was lying to me in order to go to the party, so he didn’t have to invite me and feel awkward in front of this sexy woman.
OK, so if you’ve made it this far, you know there are about 50 ASSumptions in the above 2 paragraphs. As it turns out, S. really *was * helping F colleague, and it was brief, because he leaves work at 8-8:30 and at 10:10 he called my cel. phone to tell me he was on his way home (I had invited him to meet up with me and my MF). Since I was in the subway and didn’t get the call, I called him back around 11 and he was already home. We chatted for a few minutes, and he sounded happy to talk to me, and asked if me and MF were “in the neighborhood,” because he was going to meet us if so. But because we weren’t close by, S. told me to come over after I got home, and said good-night for now. I went over when I got home, and S. was very sweet and happy to see me.
Stupid, stupid me. L So I wrote to H2H that I had learned a lesson – not MY lesson but A lesson nonetheless. She wrote back (reprinted with permission):
Quote: Again, I'm glad you didn't go […] Now, more important than that whole event - what effect will this 'lesson' have going forward? What can you say has or may change as a result of this 'experiment'? I'm trying to make you go beyond recognition of the lesson, and actually incorporate it (do something) into your R. By everything I hear about [S.], I think you've got quite the guy there... love, nuture, and adore him. You'll get the 'wrinkles' out of him along the way...
I told her that I already knew what to do, and I hope I do. Maybe you guys can help me figure it out better than my old pathetic mewling self can at this low moment.
My plan is to take this “surprise” that I felt when I found out S. had NOT lied to me, the surprise that he is actually on the up and up (DUH!), and turn it into genuine admiration, to recognize that S. is respecting me, that he doesn’t always get it, but that he is trying very hard. And act accordingly, which means give myself over to the R and TRUST again.
Another thing that happened this a.m. illustrates his effort: We have theater tickets for Tuesday and Wednesday nights next week. He works at a major news organization two nights a week - Thursday and Friday. Yesterday he was begged by the paper to come in on Election Day, and the day after. Well, he said he had tickets and they asked him to come in after the theater on ED, and he said yes. He also said yes to the next day, meaning that he would be running straight from work to the theater to meet me.
He sent me an e-mail immediately from work, stating the change of schedule and saying he wanted to let me know ASAP. At first, I pulled a 180 and wrote back, “Hey, thanks for letting me know! Bummer not to watch the election results come in together, but our hero is needed in the trenches and I understand.”
But this morning, I could not keep my fat mouth shut, and started a conversation about how they should have asked him way in advance, etc., that got us into a conv that ended with him saying “I feel like you’re questioning my judgment… etc.,” and I took a deep breath and thought for a minute, realizing that it DID sound that way, and said I was sorry, etc., and I didn’t intend to, and that where it was coming from was that on a personal level it would mean a lot to me to hear from him that he was bummed about having to rush back and forth on our planned evenings out, and that I just wanted to hear that it mattered to him. A conv. about that ensued, whereby he wouldn’t budge an inch and wouldn’t EVEN say that it WASN’T IDEAL (he kept saying over and over that we hadn’t made any plans around the theater, so it was OK, completely ignoring that we USUALLY go out to dinner before or after, and saying that it wasn’t a hardship for me so he wasn’t going to apologize for it), and finally I said, “It sounds like you are telling me that what I want to hear is wrong, that my needs somehow are wrong and that I shouldn’t need them.”
Whereupon he thought for a minute and backtracked all the way and said “I’m sorry, I guess it does sound like I’m saying that, and I do want you to know that I’m sorry I have to work those nights, and you’re right, it does interfere somewhat with our plans.” and THEN, he invited me to come into work with him on Tuesday night and hang out in all the excitement of a major newspaper and watch the election results come in. I was thrilled!
So sometimes, we manage to communicate. It took awhile, but we actually ended up hearing each other. I would never have been able to do that 4 months ago. I just need to work on reining in my crazymaker more.
First, let me say that I am very happy to finally find and post here on your new thread.
Second, you are really getting some major lessons about trust. I can only imagine how dfificult piecing and trusting will be once my H decides to make a real commitment to mending here. I am so glad you did not lead yourself into showing up at some party he was maybe attending. Had he been there, I think you would have really been feeling foolish and transparent. I can only tell you that when I showed up QUITE BY ACCIDENT at a bookstore when H was meeting an OW, I felt oddly defensive... like I had to explain my presence and my reason for having appeared at a bookstore!!! At least, I had the comforting understaniding that I had NO IDEA he would be there.
Oh, I finally found you--it makes sense that you are over here, but I just didn't know. Glad I do now.
Yes, Ethiopian was great, wasn't it? It was great meeting up with you guys. I think girls' night out must continue in whatever cities we are in (and of course with guests who happen to be in town) no matter how good things get with our guys, old and new......girlfriends are gold.
Okay, that's a huge drama you just went through. I'm glad H2H and MF talked you out of acting upon your assumptions. And very glad that S turned out to be on the up and up. Oh, the trust issue--that's a tough one. I'm just happy that the lesson was a bright one this time.
Thanks, SD, Maya, and GBO. I feel unworthy of your encouragement today - read on:
Well, it was a great weekend, until last night. Saturday, S. and I lolled about in bed in the morning and then went our separate ways until we met up again around 7 to go out with my good MF for his birthday. We were out very late and had fun - Sunday was brunch with my group of friends, and it was fun as well.
The only thing is, S. gives one particular FF of mine an awful lot of attention, and I was getting annoyed (they have met only four times before). While we were together last week, he had invited her to go along with us to the sculpture center last week (she didn't end up going, but I was really miffed he had invited her without consulting me - I hid this).
So, here are the steps leading up to this: 1. The first time he met her, it was at a party at my house and he ran home to get something he'd made to show her. 2. The second time they met, he made a big deal that their work buildings are close together and commented that they should have lunch on day - no mention of MY being there. 3. The third time they met (months later) he did the same thing - "Oh wow" conversation about how close their buildings are and that they should meet up for lunch. 4. Fourth time he invited her to go to the sculpture place with us. 5. After the lunar eclispe, which we watched the end of together in the park, he casually said, out of the blue, "I was going to call [FF] to see if she wanted to come watch the eclispe, but I didn't have her number." (She lives fairly close, in the next neighborhood over - S. and I already had plans to watch it, so it wasn't like I wouldn't be there, but STILL.) 7. Fifth time was brunch yesterday, and while I was outside for 5 minutes with my other GF's baby, he somehow managed to ask her to come back with us to his house to see the fence he made. There was no mention of it to me, and I found out an hour later after we'd paid and said goodbye and I was walking off down the street with S. and he was holding back, and I said what are you doing, and he finally said "Oh, [FF] is coming with us to see the fence." (She was still talking to one of my other friends outside the restaurant.) 6. When the three of us got to my house (remember he is three doors down), he turned to me and said, "Are you going home now? or are you coming over?" I gave him a funny look and said "I'm coming over."
So maybe I am making mountains out of molehills, but he has never done this with any of my other friends. I was REALLY annoyed. So after she left I calmly said "You know, that felt kind of funny to me." And he asked why, and I said, "Well, just the fact that you asked me if I was going home, and of course I'm coming over because my friend is coming over, and I felt like you were trying to get rid of me or something." And I mentioned the weird thing about him saying he was going to call her but didn't have her number.
I wouldn't mind if we had been hanging out together for a long time and she became a friend of both of ours and he called her up one day to do something, like if I was out of town or something. But this was happening from day 1, and I have to admit it rings of a little crush. I'm really quite surprised that S. is so dense as to not think I have a clue. Honestly, I see how things like that happen - and I don't really care, she's a lovely person, and really cute, so I GET it, but that he has no idea that he's acting like a twit is really baffling to me.
So last night, after having gone our separate ways after that short conversation (it was fine - I said my piece and we had a short exchange about it), I went out with my cousin and went over to S's later and picked a fight with him. I don't even know how it started, but we dragged out all kinds of yucky stuff - never getting really heated but both of us pulling out the ammo nonetheless.
I told him that part of my concern, admittedly and embarrassingly to me, was that I was concerned that so many of his friends were young women. I said I was concerned because it called into question why that is, if he needed that female attention, if he needed to be in a position of power, etc., and also his ability, if he needed so much female attention, to be in a committed R with one person forever. He replied that he is stuck on that one because it's obvious to him why I would be concerned about that, but that he is secure in those friendships and that he gets a lot out of them, and so he's not going to feel badly about having them, but then he goes back to seeing how it would be a cause of concern to me, and so it's a catch 22. I was glad he at least saw WHY it may be of concern to me that his friends are women in their 20s.
All kinds of issues were touched upon, such as why he isn't integrating me into his life more (I STILL have not met one of his good [27-y-o F] friends, a woman who lives fairly close by)... and other stuff like why we don't interact like he does with other people - why he got excited about showing my FF his things and why he doesn't have that much excitement about showing them to me... etc etc etc etc
Yuck. I admit I got way out of hand, but I was glad to have gotten that off my chest. We went at it for several hours and finally called it off and went to bed at 2 in the a.m. He got into bed and I sat out in the LR for another 15 minutes, and when I got into bed he pulled me to him and held me.
This morning he got up with no touching, no words, and I got up an hour later. He was working in the LR and we said little. He hugged me before I left.
So ick. Ready for my 2 x 4s, but know that I KNOW I did poorly. I have to figure out what is going on with me that the trust issues are rearing their ugly head again. I did get an opportunity to tell him (after he said I would NEVER get over the trust issues) that I felt I had come a LONG way, and maybe he couldn't see it but that I certainly could, and that I was really so much farther along in trusting him than I was even 2 months ago. He seemed somewhat assuaged by that.
Quote: I have to figure out what is going on with me that the trust issues are rearing their ugly head again.
J - these aren't your "trust issues" - they're HIS "trustworthiness issues"! I think you had every right to be insulted and concerned by his behavior. What kind of guy invites another woman home from a party to look at his fence then asks his GF if she's going home or not? It WASN'T okay behavior.
Now maybe you could have found a calmer way to let him know that wasn't okay, but I don't think it was a mistake to let him know that wasn't acceptable.
One lesson I've learned in my years and relationships - much as we would like to believe in the innocence of opposite-sex friendships - is that they are inappropriate in a long-term committed R. If you have such a friendship that is truly innocent, then your partner should be included in that friendship. Period.
Patience, J, but don't be afraid to ask yourself if you're really willing to settle for this, if he's not able to grow past this. You're a great, attractive, intelligent woman who deserves a man who treats you well and thinks the sun rises and sets on you. Give him a chance to grow up - okay - but DON'T settle for a guy who continues to think this behavior is okay, ESPECIALLY in light of his past behavior.
I'd have to agree w/ you and Ellie that S.'s behavior was 'odd' (I'm being kind here). I can completely understand why you were anxious about it. I'm not sure why you felt you did poorly - were you able to maintain a fairly calm discussion, pointing out the various points, or did the conversation itself get sticky with emotionality?
I disagree slightly with Ellie, in that I think you have (understandably) Trust issues, and there are S.'s Trustworthiness issues here as well. All hard to work on, I'm afraid...
I wish I had more in the way of advice at the moment. One thing, however, that I think may be worth noting is that it often takes men longer to digest the emotional content of a discussion (remember the book, What Could He Be Thinking?). So even though he firmly stated he wasn't going to feel bad about his female-20-something friends, give him some time to understand how this position could be hurting his R with you. If I try to put myself in his shoes (and I am NOT saying his behavior was A-OK!), he prob. felt like you were just criticizing him and not seeing so much your need for reassurance. It sounds like he got defensive and dug his heels in. In my own sitch, SO will come back to me in a day or two with some reference to the discussion and understanding the point I was trying to make. Is this typical of S.?
Finally, ease up on yourself - I don't think "stupid struck again". I think you had a very valid issue to raise with him in regards to his behavior with your FF. (BTW, how good a friend is she? Is she also behaving inappropriately?).
Quote: You're a great, attractive, intelligent woman who deserves a man who treats you well and thinks the sun rises and sets on you.
Hi Ellie, H2H, and thanks for weighing in. I agree with both of you, and I know that S’s behavior was inappropriate. When I feel funny about something, and then S. took so long to inform me that [FF] was coming back to his house to look at the fence – if he hadn’t felt a little weird about it he would have said something to me before I had practically dragged him to the corner and he was walking sooooo slowly. It makes me wonder – he KNEW he hadn’t told me she was coming, and yet he allowed me to say good-bye to everyone (including [FF]) AND start walking off down the street while [FF] was still talking to people.
[FF], to her credit, when I hugged her good-bye in front of the restaurant, gave me a funny look and said good-bye (in retrospect, I think she must have been thinking, “Oh, I’m not invited anymore, they must be in a hurry,” because she had no idea I didn’t know she was coming with us).
No, [FF] is NOT acting inappropriately at all. Remember, S. hasn’t actually called her or asked her to lunch without including me, so she has no idea about all this background stuff I told you about – I’m sure she assumes if there’s a plan that I’ll be there, and it will be I who calls to ask. She is a very good friend – the person I spent the entire day and night after the bomb with – and she is just genuinely interested in S’s projects (because he’s my partner!). I don’t know if she picked up on the weird “Are you going home now” thing or not. I am not going to involve her at all in this. I confide in her, but not this – it will only make things awkward.
So, today has been OK. S. and I have spoken several times on the phone (from three doors away) since I booked our trip to Chile today! So excited – three full weeks in Jan-Feb. And he came over to pick up some food he’d left in my fridge, and ended up staying around to eat it and hang out. Now he’s getting drain opener for my tub, and he’s going to drop me at yoga at 8 tonight (and pick me up). So for now, all is calm.
H2H, yes, S. is the kind that digs in his heels and then quietly does something to show he understood, later, when he can do it and save face at the same time. I have a feeling that soon he will make an effort to introduce me to this last FF I haven’t met, or else make more of an effort to let me know what his plans are. I was saying I did poorly because I let emotionality get into the conversation, and though I validated his points of view, it wasn’t nearly enough to save the conversation and turn it into something productive. I was quite accusatory and let me past hurts and anger well to the surface.
One thing I need to say to him is that I don’t expect him to give up his friendships. I would not ask that of him, and I wouldn’t expect him to ask it of me, Swiss Miss notwithstanding. These women are not a threat (anymore), and though I think it’s a little bizarre that he has such young lady friends, I can’t discriminate on THAT basis. I did a bad job last night of showing him I am not possessive and controlling. AND, I didn’t keep the focus on my own issues of trust – instead I attacked him for his behavior, which is quite different from letting him know how I FEEL when he does that behavior.
I did let jealousy get the better of me, and S. did say to me that he felt awful because an experience he thought was very positive (connecting with a friend of mine on something that they are both interested in, and being able to have a conversation with her about the sculpture we saw and share impressions [because she’s been to the place before]), is turning into something that he did that was wrong. He reminded me of another time during my pre-DB days that I introduced him to a yoga friend of mine on the street and they proceeded to talk (to the exclusion of me) about their common field of interest for 15 minutes, and after we left her, he was feeling very positive about the experience and I lit into him for being so rude. I was so angry I was practically shaking. We fought all during dinner and had a horrible time.
Anyway, thanks a lot, guys, and thanks as well for the compliments. I agree, of course!
So the positives of today are...
+ We managed to get business taken care of and book our tickets to Chile! + We had nice conversations during the day, if a little tiny bit strained... + He offered to drive me and pick me up from yoga, which is an AOS he NEVER offers to do (recall when I actually asked him for a ride and he asked me, "Isn't [neighbor] going?" "Why can't you do X, Y, Z?"), AND which is out of his way, AND the weather is gorgeous and it takes me only 15 minutes to walk. + He came over to eat his food, which was good QT. + He is coming over to help with my clogged drain, another AOS. + He called me between leaving here and getting the drain opener to tell me about a little silly thing that could wait, which he never does - there's always a reason for his calls. + He made a list for a trip to the coop - another AOS because of yoga I can't go to the coop with him, and he's going to pick up some things for me.
The more I think about it - it's SO bizarre that he didn't tell me she was coming, and saw me saying good-bye, and started walking off down the street with me, as though we were leaving, hand in hand. Only when we got to the corner did he let go of my hand and start dragging behind, as though he were waiting, but not saying what he was waiting FOR.
WTF?! It's not like I wasn't going to FIND OUT, especially since I was waiting for him to move his @ss. I finally said, "What are you doing?" when I tried to cross the street twice and he didn't move from the corner.
Another thing was, when we got to his house (after the "Are you going home, or coming over" thing), our neighbor was in the street and he paused to talk to her about a homeowner's thing, and when I went to talk to her, instead of waiting with me to finish the short chat and going inside together, he left me there and went inside the house with [FF] and closed the door.
Again, NOTHING could have happened - I was right there, and [FF] would never dream of it - but it's just SO bizarre!
OK, I'm done.
Goals for tonight are to shore up my LLs. Will post a list tomorrow. Tonight will be QT, either a movie in bed or reading aloud. Or maybe, a game of Scrabble while watching a movie.
Great list of positives - keep reading those to help you let go of yesterday's bad behavior. Remember that postive reinforcement is usually more successful than reaming someone with criticism. It is all odd, I'll give you that. But: (1) he's not deaf, he heard you yesterday and (2) give him some time to show you he can do better...
Look forward to hearing the LL update! Where's S.'s color chart?
