Rather than try to respond to everyone, I'm going to take a little walk and think things over.
HP, A major reason that I blew up yesterday was that a promise was made by W then every attempt was made to not live up to the promise. I really hate that. I try to have my word be my bond.
Honey had some similiar thoughts as those I've pasted here again. Perhaps worthy of some time thinking about.
It also sounds to me like there is a probabilty of incest or sexual abuse as a child....with your wife. 1) She doesn't want to talk about sex and 2) You haven't had sex in 4 years. I've seen those symptoms in others and it proved to be a sexual trauma as a child.
Quote: Dear M&KsD,
It occured to me last night that when you demanded that your wife sleep in your bed instead of the "family bed," that she may perceive that as you making her choose between you and the children.
Give in to the family bed: go ahead and join them. She might feel closer to you when you join the rest of the family, and there will be less of a "you against them" dynamic.
Be firm on sex. Reserve a bed and bedroom for sex. You can put the kids to bed, have a date in the adults' room, and then go to sleep with the kids. Or you can get up before the kids and go to the adults' room.
What I'm saying is, maybe you need to respect your wife's cultural traditions, and also the possibility that she needs to feel close to the children by sleeping with them. And, of course, she should respect your reasonable request for a marital sex life. With a little creativity, maybe you can both have your way.
I have read and reread your posts and two themes keep coming to my mind. They are Cultural and Individual.
I think people give too much credit to the cultural differences spouses have when they just disagree on individual issues. Saying somethin is "Cultural" might lead one to beleive the changes you want will never happen because that is the way a spouse is due to his or her culture. I think people try to avoid a conflict or are afraid of what will be said in anger if the real issues are discussed
A person might think change is possible with an individual, but how are you going to change the culture? That is impossable. Too big of a job. It's like comparing the culture to a train. You know that if you stand in the path of a moving train you are going to lose, so you do not do that. Changing the culture of a spouse is too much work or too painful so one is reluctant to make changes in the M.
Basically, we give the cultural differences too much credit when the focus should be on the individual beliefs a person practices. Maybe it's a way for your W to avoid the real issues.
I think your W is using the cultural excuse to back up her beliefs / feelings / emotions of not wanting a normal marrital relationship with you. I also believe most people in the industrialized world have a similar range of sexual desire for their spouse. I am sure Husbands in Japan do not go for 4 years with out sexual intercourse (SI) with their wife unless they participate in this kind of activity (SI) with another woman or have a compensated dating partner.
Paul, I am not trying to pick on you or your W. Just pointing out to you that sometimes the things we talk about are secondary to the real issue that is keeping us from progressing in our quest for a happier R with our spouse.
For example: Lillieperl said her BF is good at what she called "creating the fog" or avoiding the real issues she wants to talk about. FocusedFlutist has her issues with her H where anger is displayed to avoid talking about the real issues in their relationship.
OG Lou sometimes things stick in my mind and I think what if, what are the real "brass tacks" (honest measure or real issues)
Quote: I think people give too much credit to the cultural differences spouses have when they just disagree on individual issues. Saying somethin is "Cultural" might lead one to beleive the changes you want will never happen because that is the way a spouse is due to his or her culture. I think people try to avoid a conflict or are afraid of what will be said in anger if the real issues are discussed
What I've been trying to say is that there is a cultural aspect which has to be acknowledged if you want a change from the individual.
I know what it is like to live from day to day in a culture different from the one you grew up in. I've done it fro 17 yrs. I have other immigrant friends here as well, and we all struggle with different aspects of this culture. We've chosen to do it, for various reasons, and yes, of course, we could probably go home if we really wanted to. So we have to learn to deal with the cultural differences in the best way we can. Still can cause problems though.
I've been criticized here for the way I raise my children. Not only don't people understand why I want to insure that my children speak two languages, they don't understand why I am raising them to be outspoken, social, inquisitive, creative people. I've been told that they will have problems fitting into society here, and I'm doing them a disservice.
My children know how to engage in conversation with adults, they know when to sit still and when they can run around. They are kids, and get out of hand occasionally, but rarely, 'cause they know they'll have their time to 'blow off steam' I don't want my children to hang on my skirt hem when we go out, afraid to talk, and sit like little soldiers at the table and let their parents talk for them. I feel very very strongly about this.
At times I feel like like I'm fighting a tide. I don't want to tell my in-laws how to treat my children, but there are somethings that I cringe at...my MIL passing on fears, and I don't agree with the fact that here children as young as 7 are left alone for several hrs at a time, and expected to find their way home from school, even if it means taking public transportation rather long distances (no school busses). This causes problems for me at times, and I many times remind H that if I seem 'overly protective', that he should try to remember where I'm coming from. We have been able to discuss this, and usually do come to some compromise.
So I understand Paul's W. I think he needs to first understand how strong the idea of 'family bed' is ingrained in his W.
Having said that, it doesn't get her off the hook, and I suspect she is hiding behind it somewhat. She's not willing to compromise right now. But maybe, if Paul understands how important it is to her, he can acknowledge that and find a way to compromise.
I think there are other issues they have to deal with as well, but they do have to find a way to bridge two cultures here.
The idea is, you can't change a whole culture. And you can't take 'culture' out of a person. You have to learn to work around it.
I have been turning things over in my mind. One thing that we have been ignoring is the extent to which things change within a culture. Our own marriages are, at least on the surface, very different from our parents'. Certainly there are many deeply ingrained similarities, but families in the U.S. have been significantly restructured over the last say 40 years. Even those of us who stayed in the culture we grew up in cannot look to our parents' marriage for all the answers.
Regarding the possibility of my W being abused, I get the impression from several posts that it is not wise to dwell on such things. When I mentioned to W the article Lillie referenced in her post, she stated that she "needs to think about it," that she hadn't considered the possibility of co-sleeping leading to widespread incest. This could be face-saving for her. Perhaps she has some cultural feeling that she should sleep with the kids, but she is also tired of my incessant complaining.
FF: I hear ya'. I am trying to be sensitive to our cultural differences. I would consider relenting on the co-sleeping issue if she were to work with me on the intimacy issue. She still flatly refused to see a C, OK maybe that's cultural. But refusing a hug or kiss? What culture prohibits intimacy in private among married couples? Not a culture that's long for this earth! Also, remember that W left Japan. In retrospect, that does give credence to the likelihood of abuse, especially since her sister also left. W is somewhat out of touch with contemporary Japan.
I want to thank you for all your help in this diffcult week. I have certainly got my wife's attention, but I'm not sure what to do with it. I've learned a few things about myself. I'm tired of doing what I've been doing: alternately begging and bossing. For some reason my W does not want me and nothing I have done has changed that. I'm going to stop trying to fix the relationship and start trying to fix myself. I'm not spouting SSM dogma here. I've been throwing myself into such a tizzy about my W's rejection that I'm out of control. It may mean some dereliction of my duties at home. It may cause my W to consider leaving me. I am suffering from a fusion with an idea of who I am in relation to my wife. I'm just not going to let her have that kind of power over me.
I need to change my name. I have finally realized that it's not just about "kids sleeping in our bed." I knew that, but I hung onto a dream that sleeping with W alone would lead toward a path of salvation. My first post here was 4 months ago and all my headbutting has not lead any further intimacy.
I need to start having something else occupy my thoughts.
I firmly believe that the beginning of changing the dynamics of your marriage starts with working on yourself!!! That's what's been working for me. The changes may be slow, but I really think they will happen for you.
