Did some poking around on the internet and found this interesting quote from a 1991 publication:
Quote: The average Japanese today sleeps with his or her children until the children are ten or fifteen years old, - one recent Japanese study found daughters still sleeping with their fathers over 20 percent of the time even after age sixteen. Even when the home contains a dozen rooms or more, parents and grandparents feel "lonely" if they sleep apart from the children in the family, and therefore go to bed with some child every night (the mean age in one study of children sleeping alone is 12.7 years).... Many families still practice what is termed dakine co-sleeping - with the parent or grandparent sleeping while physically embracing the child, a practice said to be beneficial to the health of the adult (I edited this paragraph slightly. -LP)
Anyway, I guess this answers my question. If this is the way it's done in Japan, then what you're asking definitely feels completely abnormal to her. The thing above about how the parent feels "lonely" if they're not sleeping with the child is exactly what she's been saying to you. You could be swimming against a cultural tide that's just too powerful to overcome... The question is, is she willing to compromise at all.
Thanks so much for finding this. It's either a goldmine or a minefield. I certainly will investigate these issues further. One thing I notice is that the article is an attempt to show the pervasiveness of incest in Japan. There is no implication that Japanese couples avoid sex, just that they do it with the kids around, something my wife does not consider doing. I'm not sure about the references to issei and nissei, at least in the US. I get the feeling that these families conform to American standards. As you pointed out in an earlier post, until a century ago, many families in the US and Europe co-slept as well. Japan's economic boom has been even more recent.
As you might suspect, nothing has been resolved in our house. I went home late last night and left early this morning. I'm still really upset. W just keeps repeating that this practice is common in Japan, but won't go into any details. She does not see it as a problem in any way.
I suspect that if what the article says about issei and nissei is true, then there are hundreds or thousands of American men having a huge problem. Maybe there is a support group or BB out there.
Paul, "It's either a goldmine or a minefield" certainly says it perfectly. I hesitated because, as you point out, the purpose of the article is to show the prevalence of incest in Japan, but the paragraph described so exactly what you are facing that I decided to risk it.
Clearly, one doesn't need to look any farther than culture to explain her wanting to co-sleep with the children, but IF something did happen to her while sleeping in the family bed when she was a child, it might explain her reluctance to talk about it.
Could you live with the co-sleeping if you still had a normal sex life?
Cause that, imo, is not so much a cultural issue..after all, there are millions of American co-sleepers.
If she would agree to working on your sex life, would you be willing to give co-sleeping a few more years?
Cause, honestly, your kids are getting to the age where they will naturally outgrow it at some point. In this country, kids do not sleep with their parents as teenagers and yours won't either. In principle I have nothing against co-sleeping and even think parents who do it are quite devoted. I couldn't even stand the phase when our kids were newborns and slept in between us for a week or two. H and I are both very light sleepers and it was the equivalent of all of us being up the entire night. In fact, I have a difficult time sleeping with just H..he's horrible to sleep with!
Anyway, you might be going up against a brick wall in trying to eliminate the cosleeping and it probably isn't the core issue anyway. What if you successfully get the kids in their own beds and she won't sleep with you anyway? In fact, it sounds like this is what would happen because she'd be angry at you and lonely for the kids.
But I agree you need to do something--no sex for 4 years is ridiculous.
Good luck and stand firm in what you want and need out of this marriage.
HP: I think the deal is that, as long as the co-sleeping goes on, his W does not feel comfortable having sex, although she is also using it as a shield.
I hate co-sleeping because I always got racked in the nuts, or elbowed in the middle of my back. But that's just me.
Paul: Sounds like you're kind of avoiding the inevitable by coming home late and leaving early. Not that I blame you.
I exhaled deeply when I read your post. It meant that you did not do anything rash. It occured to me last night that when you demanded that your wife sleep in your bed instead of the "family bed," that she may perceive that as you making her choose between you and the children. She would choose the children, don't you think?
Maybe you need to decouple your issue of the two of you sleeping in the same bed with your issue of no sex life. Give in to the family bed: go ahead and join them. She might feel closer to you when you join the rest of the family, and there will be less of a "you against them" dynamic.
Be firm on sex. Reserve a bed and bedroom for sex. You can put the kids to bed, have a date in the adults' room, and then go to sleep with the kids. Or you can get up before the kids and go to the adults' room.
What I'm saying is, maybe you need to respect your wife's cultural traditions, and also the possibility that she needs to feel close to the children by sleeping with them. And, of course, she should respect your reasonable request for a marital sex life. With a little creativity, maybe you can both have your way.
SM
"If we will be quiet and ready enough, we shall find compensation in every disappointment." Henry David Thoreau
Hairy, You crack me up. Yes I agree that cosleeping was a PITA. My oldest daughter went thru a phase where she wanted to sleep with us..she was about 2 at the time. We tried it and it drove me insane. She wanted to sleep with her forehead touching mine the whole night, like a security thing. I felt like I was suffocating!
I understand that his wife uses the kids as a shield but I don't think that the cosleeping is the real issue. They could have sex elsewhere and still cosleep with the kiddos but they'd have to really work together to set some ground rules for the kids: Bedtime is at 8:30. Mom and Dad will lay with you for 10 minutes while you fall asleep. Then we get up and do our own thing and will join you when it's our bedtime.
It sounds like a whole bunch of things all mixed in together to me. His wife won't have sex with him. The kids have no set bedtime and take forever to get to bed. That leaves them no time together as a couple.
Eliminating the cosleeping does not address the above issues.
GOOD LUCK Paul, you can do this. You have taken the first step and that is truly the hardest, don't you think?
(I don't know how to reply to more than one person at a time and have the text to refer to, hence the multiple responses.) Several people pointed out that her behavior reminded them of one who had been wounded in some way. Another thing that I should point out is that she used to hit me a lot in bed. Since I was raised to never hit a lady, I took it until it was too much to bear, and for a while I refused to sleep with her. If I touch her in the bed, she still beats and kicks for all she's worth.
Quote: If I touch her in the bed, she still beats and kicks for all she's worth
It does seem like something went on in the past...
As the others have said, I'm assuming the issue is not just the family bed, but her refusal to sleep alone with you without treating it like some kind of violation. Honey's suggestion would certainly cover co-sleeping and having sex-- I'm sure this is how co-sleepers around the world work things out.
I hesitated because, as you point out, the purpose of the article is to show the prevalence of incest in Japan, but the paragraph described so exactly what you are facing that I decided to risk it.