Hi Deb - The what-to-do, what-not-to-do question is such a vexing one.
Quote: Is your H predictble in his responses? Sometimes it seems mine changes so much from day to day, it's hard to know what to do.
Ditto. It used to frustrate me no end when his response was different from what I expected; what I was used to. Then, I cottoned on to the fact that just as I have changed, so has he. Hence the 'New Guy' label When I remember to think, I approach him as I would an interesting new guy, and am no longer 'expecting' a particular response, just taking his input for what it is. It really is tricky, knowing when it is appropriate to rely on my 20+ years' knowledge of this guy, versus when to go with the flow, and act as if it is a constantly renewing relationship.
Take for example a small episode with the lawyer's cheque for the flat we are selling. Pre-bomb, I was the paperwork gofer. As hard as it is to see things get disorganised, I have dropped this particular rope. NG casually mentioned a couple of days ago that the cheque needed to be sent and I agreed, and changed the subject. Finally yesterday, he says quietly, would I write out the cheque as his writing is hardly legible anymore. I asked him to sit with me so we get the details right, which he did quite happily. In this case, me not assuming - that it was my responsibility when he first mentioned the cheque - or that he thought it was 'my job' - helped a lot. It is so hard re-learning how to think like a newbie, but mostly it comes down to doing nothing, and accepting the consequence that though the outcome is not as we would have normally liked, it is nevertheless a perfectly acceptable outcome.
Hi H2H - Isn't it amazing that so many of us here have the same mode of operation?
Quote: Rushing around trying to make the 'next thing' perfect all but erased the moment I was in. And as long as I kept this up, it felt like that future never came bec. by the time it did I was beyond it, working on the 'next'.
This is so hard for me to turn around too. In fact, I posted on Sage and Pam's joint thread on self esteem - the compulsion for perfection, and attaching my self esteem to that goal, is an assumption that has defined so much of me, and shaped so many of my past decisions. Ugh.
It was at best a blah sort of day. NG was still not feeling completely recovered from his chest infection, and got quite busy with work on the phone. A mutual friend invited us out to lunch, NG said 'we'll see' which meant leaving her hanging on, and as I wanted some time out anyway, I went ahead and confirmed. I have to confess, his habit of 'hedging his bets' like in this case sometimes really winds me up. But, I think I'm learning how to make an offer, if he is not keen, I just move on. I know he was surprised I decided to pop out to lunch anyways, and I did bring him back his fave pie
Over tea we got chatting about the dinner party we are hosting this Sat night. I ran through folks from my part of the list who have confirmed and asked NG how he got on with his. He said he was waiting on one couple and that was it. Now, one of the other folks on his list did ping me to say she could not make it, we happened to be emailing about a work related issue. NG does not know she was in contact with me. I asked NG again if he had invited anyone else, and he said very clearly NO. Now, why would he choose to lie about something like that I dropped the subject, but really could not get the confusion out of my mind. And of course, it only served to remind me of all the other lies. Net result? I was withdrawn for the rest of the afternoon, while he drove me to the airport, and parted ways
So here I am, in this beautiful hotel room, anxious about my meeting tomorrow, and now, anxious about what else is going on that NG is deceiving me about. Yuck
Hi Slowly, I've been catching up on your thread over here. First of all, congrats on figuring out NG's need for QT...my LL is QT also and sleeping in (when you could be working on that 20-point to-do list) is sure a great boost for someone who values that "unproductive" time together!
On the guest list, I hear your anxiety about trust issues. Now, is there another explanation possible here? Unless I'm reading it wrong, a joint dinner party seems like a funny thing to be deceptive about since you'll know all eventually anyway, right? Or are you worried about a habit of lying, even about the small stuff? Anyway, obviously this trust thing is a biggie, and I'm not trying to minimize the impact of it.
I sure can relate to this issue of trust and seemingly little or silly lies. It drives me nuts!
Since it often makes no sense to me, I am beginning (& it is hard work!) to look at it from a different perspective. To take it less personally, and try to understand what might lay underneath the little 'lie'. In some cases, I honestly believe he doesn't consider it a lie and therefore would not understand why I am upset. And in others, when I am sure he knows, I often see it as fear - fear of my reaction, fear of feeling controlled, fear of being vulnerable, fear of being completely known. In those cases, I try to think of what would it take to make him feel safe to tell the truth, not feel fear of any kind. To give room for him to prefer to choose honesty over deception, or ommission.
In this particular case, could it be that he ALSO got a message from this couple, so they are no longer on the list. I can easily see why he wouldn't get into the details of who he invited but isn't coming. These are the sort of details my SO wouldn't give a nano-second of thought to. So in the end, it wouldn't be a lie.
And while we're on the subject of deception - wasn't it a lie of ommission on your part to ask with knowledge of this cancellation? I do this too, and then I realize that perhaps the whole "lie" could have been avoided if instead of setting him up, I was more direct - like "Oh, I heard from XXX, she pinged that they can't make it. Is there anyone else?"
I despise lying with a passion, but I am beginning to realize that I often contribute to its occurence by either being deceptive myself, reacting to the truths I don't particularly like, or having an interpretation of "The Truth" that is not necessarily the 'right' or 'only' interpretation.
For me, it comes down to reframing. As annoying or confusing as this detail is, in the scheme of things, it isn't a biggie. What SO doesn't understand is how something this small can send me down a big fat insecurity tunnel! Learning to let go of the small stuff helps...
Hi GBO and H2H - You guys are so good at holding the mirror up - I really needed this
Quote: And while we're on the subject of deception - wasn't it a lie of ommission on your part to ask with knowledge of this cancellation? I do this too, and then I realize that perhaps the whole "lie" could have been avoided if instead of setting him up, I was more direct - like "Oh, I heard from XXX, she pinged that they can't make it. Is there anyone else?"
I am so into the poor-me-being-deceived that I'm justifying my own less than admirable actions. You are right, there was a better way to handle this.
GBO, I have the same concerns you raise, it is such a small thing, in itself it was not that big a deal.
Quote: Or are you worried about a habit of lying, even about the small stuff?
Yes, I guess this is my concern. But I do think I need to get under the words and see what is prompting them. I have no idea where to start, though
Quote: Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Or are you worried about a habit of lying, even about the small stuff? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, I guess this is my concern. But I do think I need to get under the words and see what is prompting them. I have no idea where to start, though
This is what really got (& still gets)me and I have even talked to him about it when we were still living together. If you lie about small, unimportant stuff, how will I know if the 'big' stuff is real or a lie? He never had an answer to that. In fact everytime I 'busted' him on a lie, he would get super defensive and it would set us back miles. I had to learn to stop confronting him in hopes of finding some other path to honesty & for me 'security'.
I still have no answer to that question, so I was 'forced' to try something different. Try to get to the root and take away any of the ways I may have contributed to it. I desperately try to 'see' things from different perspectives in hopes of finding some logic to it all. I know that the examination of my own issues has uncovered 'fear' in a lot of what I was doing & saying - so, I am testing this theory on the issue of his lying. In my sitch I think I underestimated how much he seeks my approval & when he felt he was getting it, I think he resorted to some of the small lies as a way to lessen my 'stature' in his eyes. Like he could outsmart me. It does sound very odd as I write it out, but I do see some very specific examples of this back in the day.
The temptation to set him up is still there and I often slip up. But overall I would say that limiting my contribution to it, and backing way off from letting him know that I am still super-vigilent has helped (I think ).
Let's keep comparing notes and see if we can help work through this issue. For me it is a BIG issue overall even though many of the specific or incidents are small.
I'm glad you had some good feedback here. I really dug H2H's comments to you... and she somehow found a way to elaborate a little thing that occurred to me.
But I'm going to take a different slant. Only because it's something I know first hand.
What if your assumptions were true, but not for an intentionally deceptive reason? What if you could put on another set of glasses and make a different assumption that he's not intentionally lying?
Every year, my boss hosts a holiday party at his house. I am the hostess--I send out invitations from a list we created together and take care of the catererer, etc.
And every year, a bunch of people RSVP to me that are not on the list.
The first couple of years, I got angry (yes, this was a control issue). I'd tell him, "D, how in the world am I supposed to work with the caterer when you go behind my back and hand out invitations unknowingly? Why don't you just tell me about them so they aren't a surprise?"
He looked a little hurt and said, "Well, I didn't do it to piss you off, Bets. I see friends while I'm out and about and I give them the invitation. I'm sorry if I forget to tell you about them. Why not just take the head count, add 10 and call it even?"
I've been doing it for many years now, and you know what? He's just that way. So am I for that matter.
I, too, have been accused for omitting truths. I just forgot about them so when they did surface, I was able to see how my inability to communicate effectively affected the other person. It wasn't intentional... deceptive in the long run? Well, yes. But not deliberate.
Slowly, you know I am a fan of the little lies=big lies concept. But what is the real issue here? Is it the fact that he's not seemingly disclosing what you want to hear? Is he being tested without knowledge? How can he meet your standards if he doesn't know he's being held to them?
This isn't a whack, sweetie. I just want you to consider his perspective.
BTW, now that we've been having that holiday party for a long time, my boss has people who hear about it from his friends. They invite themselves--and he hears about it through the grapevine. He's always reluctant to tell me about the freeloaders... because he knows it pisses me off.
Maybe NG didn't issue the invitation but someone assumed? And since he technically didn't invite anyone was telling you the truth? As a rule, men don't know what to do with situations that are beyond their control (and they don't have prior experience to devise a script on the fly), especially when they know it will create a ruckus at home.
I'm going to say point blank here that the men in my life (Mr. W., my boss, my friends, my dad and my brother) have all been known to keep me in the dark about small things that they know will set me off.
Why? Because they knew that losing control of something would invoke rage and disappointment. And they knew they were screwed either way.
How about just telling NG you know about the other people and ask him how they got included on the list? I'm going to bet dollars to donuts that he has a logical explanation and the reason behind it might surprise you.
Just something else to consider...
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Slowly, I haven't posted to you in awhile, but I have been lurking. I agree with Bets on this one. Confront him and if he did lie you may find out why. If he didn't lie you will be more apt to believe him the next time. Just be tactful and considerate when you do confront him. I know you will anyway.
I had a conversation about this very thing with my H not too long ago. He told me something but I knew he was leaving part of the story out. It wasn't something major but I pointed out to him, you said this but I know there's more to it. His response - look I'm a guy, I'm not that detail oriented. I'm not trying to lie to you or leave things out, I just don't think about every little detail.
Could it be he didn't leave out that couple on purpose? Maybe he just didn't think about it.
When I remember to think, I approach him as I would an interesting new guy, and am no longer 'expecting' a particular response, just taking his input for what it is. It really is tricky, knowing when it is appropriate to rely on my 20+ years' knowledge of this guy, versus when to go with the flow, and act as if it is a constantly renewing relationship.
Betsey