Happy belated birthday! I haven't forgotten you... have just been concentrating on my life away from the computer for awhile.
Your post resonates with me... all the way around. I like what Ellie has to say. We are all human and subject to making mistakes. I think the value in building trust lies when someone hurts us (or we hurt others) and there is a mutual agreement to put it aside in order to rebuild the R once again--in whatever shape that needs to take for both of you to feel good.
I look back on my own life and see that I have had BIG conflicts with the best friends I have now. One of them resulted in a 3 year silence that damn near killed both of us. Yes, we have scars between us. But the beauty of forgiveness is so obvious: that we choose to forgive the sin and choose to love the sinner.
My best friend since childhood is the one who I had a 3 year silent treatment back in our 20s. Our parents are good friends and they were as devastated by our falling out as we were (and neither one of us was budging).
The night before I moved to California, she called me and broke down in tears. "Betsey, I could never let you move to the other coast without telling you how much I love you and miss you." I broke down myself and we began working on our friendship again--with 2400 miles between us rather than 1.
She came out to visit me a year later. We were lying on my bed, and I was still in pain with the guilt for shutting her out (it was MY choice). She, on the other hand, was at peace. And she chose to love me even more. As I was crying, I asked her why she felt that she could forgive me for being so cruel?
She smiled very tenderly and gave me a hug and said,
"Because my life with you in it, in whatever capacity that is, is FAR better than my life without you for any reason."
Slowly, that conversation took place more than 15 years ago and I have not forgotten it. She is a role model in forgiveness for me. She indicated to me that forgiving me was a commitment she made to herself so that she could enjoy our friendship again.
And while she did that, she shared with me that my reason for being so frustrated with her was valid. She wanted us to be friends again and base it on a more adult foundation than the one we had from childhood.
Can you tell yourself those words when you look at NG? Can you put aside all your doubts and fears to see a man who is in your life for a good reason? A man who is making steps toward repairing himself so that you can see him through a different pair of spectacles? Granted, it won't be the same view you had before... but you might just have the chance to see him more clearly because you got a new Rx in those glasses... and more fairly because there is truth between you now?
I think limbo is a pretty crappy place to be. But this reminds me of a conversation I had with DB coach, Laurie, awhile back. I was in limbo because I chose to be there... no matter how awful some choices are, they ARE choices. I can only be stuck somewhere if I choose to remain where I am. Nobody has locked a door to me. If a door is locked, it's only because I have locked it.
So, my dear, where do you want to go with all of this?
Big hugs to a really lovely lady!
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Hi Slowly, I've been following your sitch, but havent been good about posting to you (or anyone else for that matter!)....but I'm thinking of you and wanted to let you know that. As always, it sounds like our sitchs are running very much along a parallel course......
and this limbo land is a tough place to be. I just read Betsey's post to you, and it is helpful to be reminded that being here right now is a choice.......I've found lots of other bits of wisdom here on your thread the last couple of days as well.
I'm sure thinking of you, even though your sitch is so close to mine I'm not sure what to add!
Hi Betsey - Your post, as always, is both timely and on the mark. I wonder if we were siblings in a previous birth - you seem to turn up just when I need your particular wisdom most It was important for me to hear that I am here out of choice. And I think for now, I'm happy with this choice.
Yesterday was 'interesting'. For both of us, birthdays have been pretty low key affairs - we tend to buy each other gifts as and when we feel like it, as opposed to marking specific dates. This year, however, with me and F organising our party last Saturday, I knew NG was feeling 'peer pressure' to get me something for my birthday. As I planned to pop out in the morning, he asked me to hang around till noon for a 'delivery' with a somewhat sheepish look on his face. Of course, I got the largets bunch of flowers with two boxes of chocolates. No note though. I admit, I was letting my expectations run away with me, and got a little teary because there was no tenderness all day, and no words with the gift. He saw me less than happy and so the 'discussion' began.
Another thing that has been preying on my mind is the fact that NG had moved OW's contact numbers on his cell from 4 different entries into one consolidated one. No I was not snooping, technically. We both agreed that both our cells are now 'communal'. So since Tuesday when I saw this I have been off colour. In the poast he maintained that he had not got round to deleting unused numbers, but yesterday could not explain why they were refreshed - a big difference from not getting round to deleting Not my best dbing, but I guess I needed him to hear what was bothering me, especially as he was adamant that he did not want to talk about anything to do with 'us' and that time will help 'things' settle down.
Then we got to the subject of our asset which is now in his sole name. Boy, the defensiveness from him was something to behold. If I did not trust him, that after 5 years, we needed to update the legal title, if there was no trust, then why continue? Why not call it a day now? I've heard this before of course, and 6 months ago, took this line seriously, but now understand that his stance is a mask for fear. So, a couple of hours of my tears, his temper and sullen postures, and we somehow muddled through. One interesting question he asked me was why I was still pursuing a relationship with him, when he expected me to be bitter, as he was now feeling bitter about what he had done.
We seem to have cleared the air somewhat, less tension today, and I guess I need to once again sift through what was said, and unsaid. I now accept that limbo is not so bad, because we both seem to desperately need time to get ourselves sorted. Any thoughts you guys may have would be most welcome
Well, Slowly, my parents spend a lot of time in the UK, so maybe anything is possible!
I am absolutely committed to not working today, so at least I'm making an effort to being productive somewhere. You're stuck with me today. Well, at least until my boss gets back from lunch!
Okay, if not giving birthday gifts has been your M.O. all along with NG, why were the unspoken expectations of something different present? If you really wanted something from him, why not ask?
NG, this year it would make me happy if you gave me a gift from your heart. The gift I would cherish most is if you write me something that tells me why I'm special to you.
I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to do this?
On to OW--here's what I see. Not from a vantage point of NG, but of Slowly. Correct me if I'm wrong...
NG, I saw the consolidation of OW's phone numbers on your cell. I admit that I'm feeling afraid. Afraid that I am not your choice. Can you help me overcome my fear?
I know you've been lurking on my thread for the time being. Defensiveness is a form of anger, and I'm going to venture to say it rears its ugly head when a truth pops out.
Honey, I suspect he's feeling all the same fears as you are. If you are adding to them, chances are he's playing out a couple scenarios in his head to hedge his bets. What on earth can you do so that he can feel as though a life without you is not an option?
This is what I see from his decision to take your name off the title:
Holy heck! I have no idea how I stand a snowball's chance in he!! with her! Most of the time, I really feel that we can make it, but she has some stumbling blocks that are making me fearful of us ever staying married to each other.
I really wonder if she can ever forgive me so we can just get on with working on being happy?
Better start putting myself in a position to make things easier on myself in case that ever happens.
Sweetie, are you doing things, saying things or thinking things that may be triggering his fears?
Bets
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Hi Betsey - We popped out for a pizza dinner and just got back. Strangely, we are a ok 95% of the time. Just the few hours in a week that 'I' choose to rattle his cage. Why do I do this? Part of my personal rationalisation of his A is that things were too predictable and too easy with me. Yeah, I need to change the 'predictable' bit, maybe with a different form mystery, as opposed to driving him into this zone of fear, discomfort and even irritation.
Something that I am struggling with right now is my own expectations of NG. For so many years, I accepted that he is a minimalist, dry, witty fellow, for whom displays of emotion were considered 'wet'. When OW shared with me the things he said and did with her, which were all the things I'd have loved, but thought were beyond NG's scope, it hurt. Still hurts. Why would NG declare that I am his choice, but not accord me the gestures I now know him to be capable of? I tried to broach this with him a couple of months ago, and got slammed down quite hard, that he did not want to have constant comparisons Neither do I, what I'd like is new memories, better ones...
Quote: Honey, I suspect he's feeling all the same fears as you are. If you are adding to them, chances are he's playing out a couple scenarios in his head to hedge his bets. What on earth can you do so that he can feel as though a life without you is not an option?
Holy heck! I have no idea how I stand a snowball's chance in he!! with her! Most of the time, I really feel that we can make it, but she has some stumbling blocks that are making me fearful of us ever staying married to each other. I really wonder if she can ever forgive me so we can just get on with working on being happy? Better start putting myself in a position to make things easier on myself in case that ever happens.
Bingo. It really did not dawn on me till yesterday's discussion that the guy is harbouring serious concerns. His normal posture is one of super-confidence bordering on arrogance, it is not easy to spot the fear. On top of all this, the fact that I am re-connecting with my friends, and that they are responding BIG time, is something that is worrying him. From being fairly reclusive, I'm now socialising with a vengeance. He never used to ask who I spoke with, emailed with etc. Perhaps my 'get a life' has gone too far? Maybe I need to balance it with some reassurances of my own? But would that not defeat the purpose of 'mystery'? At what point does feeling safe in a relationship cross over to being 'boring' and lead to being taken for granted?
On the whole I think we are OK. I'm not yet completely confident that the thing with OW is over, and don't know what NG can do to make me more comfortable - this may be a time thing. We are learning how to communicate with each other, I guess that would be a good description of where we are.
Thanks Betsey for the awesome coaching - I'm enjoying this attention
Hi Pizza Girl! Was it good? Did you get some extra toppings on yours so I can live vicariously through you and drool over my keyboard?
Well, there's a reason I'm here too, so the pleasure is all mine. I still have lots of reassuring to do in my own Rs... and somehow those doggone tapes have me completely focused on how others might have perceived me in the past. Always a work in progress, you know.
Okay, I think you might be on to something with rattling his fear cage... the socializing and creating some mystery.
Remember one important rule of that concept: that they are good as long as they are bringing you closer to each other. I see your self motivated report card here, and it's clearly showing that he is getting fearful from this independence?
Ah, you hit a nerve with me in your observations that NG behaved very differently with OW than you. Well, when he jumped into her pool, he didn't have a set of rules and expectations, and I bet it was just a little bit easier (for lack of a better word) for him to do something different? That his behaviors and intent were not on hurting you... but merely how he was feeling when he was with her?
I know this dynamic so well, Slowly. It sort of reminds me of aspects of my own sitch... because somewhere along the line in my 14+ year marriage, Mr. Wonderful and I just got stuck in a pattern and started creating unspoken and rules where they were implied and not consentual.
Then we got to a point where they became some set of commandments? And I have no idea how that happened?
Maybe he wouldn't feel so defensive about doing things differently with you if you suggested them from a different perspective? Not giving him any indicator that he's being held to a standard of comparison with OW, but what YOU would like from him?
Think about those things that you would like from him... and let's cogitate a bit.
Hugs,
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Happy Friday everyone Though today is the last day of our holiday here in the cottage, so we are both a little sad. It may be another 6 months before we are back here, but I guess its something to look forward to. Nice night, nothing heavy or spectacular, just the normal tight hug and being held all night, which I so appreciate, and will never again take for granted.
Having had some more time to cogitate over Bets' observations, I tried reaching out to NG this morning. No expectations, just an ILY. And wow, I got back such a heartfelt 'snog' and ILY back - makes me think that he really is wanting me to initiate, maybe a little concerned that I may be having second thoughts?
I've also been noticing that some of his reticence is not about me, its just his nature to be understated, and not take the initiative. For example his family. So far, we have not visited his 90+ year old grandma, but have seen his aunt 3 times. The difference? His aunt has been calling, emailing and inviting us over. His grandma was probably a little pre-occupied when he called her early in our hols, so he is maybe 'afraid' of reaching out. (these guys have a history of hit-and-miss family sagas)
A BIG 180 for me - I used to take on the task of organising these family get togethers. And carry the can for anything not going quite to plan, and tension that might crop up. I put myself in the position of the 'proposer' and gave NG the upper hand of being able to accept or reject. No more. Now, he is making decisions about his side of the family, and I can see that this new path is something he is struggling with. But bless him, he is rising to it.
So we continue, learning a little more each day. I'm keeping a tighter lid on my expectations, as this seems to be where I fall apart, when I let the good times lull me into expecting more. NG is a wonderful guy, with some problems. We are lucky that we both want this to work. I think he can learn to be more honest. I think I can learn to make it easier for him to open up.
We had a lie in, and now its time to go heat up some oats for porridge. Its wintry here, and we are warm and cosy indoors. Bliss. Slowly
I hope that you has a lovely breakfast, is it almost tea time there?
The quote below really hit home with me today.
Quote: Something that I am struggling with right now is my own expectations of NG. For so many years, I accepted that he is a minimalist, dry, witty fellow, for whom displays of emotion were considered 'wet'. When OW shared with me the things he said and did with her, which were all the things I'd have loved, but thought were beyond NG's scope, it hurt. Still hurts. Why would NG declare that I am his choice, but not accord me the gestures I now know him to be capable of?
The things that I know that he did with OW were all things that I would have liked to have done as well, but would have never asked or pushed H to do because I ASSumed that after 15 years of marriage that I knew what H was capable of and what he was and wasn't willing to do.
There were things that I never pushed him to do because of the demands of his travel and business I knew that he was tired.
But from a distance (and my perspective) he did a lot of those things while he was romancing OW.
yuk
I am praying for the day when H realizes that doing things for me is an investment in our R and not just a way to maybe get "lucky."
Maybe inherent in that is an ASSumption that he will one day stop being so self focused. Big assumption.
Hi Pam - Yuk is right, and the child in me just wants to sit down and wail. But, I'm taking Bets' pointers seriously, I do think it is a dynamic that creates these actions/gestures, and we can change the dynamic. I saw some of that last night at dinner.
We were out at a casual bistro with his uncle and aunt, it was fun, chaotic, busy. It took 15 minutes to place the order, we were all getting into the food and chatting away, and partway through the meal I realised that I needed a refill on the wine. So happened the waiter was whizzing past me, so I just gestured to him I needed a refill. and turned back to the table to see NG looking bewildered as if to say 'why did you not get me to do that?' And in that moment, I saw that if I had cultivated a little more patience, and a little more 'helplessness' a beautiful moment could have been created
Betsey 
Not my best dbing, but I guess I needed him to hear what was bothering me, especially as he was adamant that he did not want to talk about anything to do with 'us' and that time will help 'things' settle down. 
